MovieChat Forums > Doctor Who (2023) Discussion > Thoughts on The Legend of Ruby Sunday

Thoughts on The Legend of Ruby Sunday

posted 14 days ago by peter_t_2k3 (1016)
16 replies | jump to latest

If you've not seen this then don't read this as it'll contain major spoilers.

This episode I've came out with mixed thoughts. It kind of went all full steam ahead, a lot of exposition etc. I kind of feel like it could have done with slowing down at parts.

The reveal of Sutekh being the big bad was a great cliffhanger, the build up was really chilling. People had speculated his return but the build up was still good.

However it's also a bit confusing as Sutekh was just an alien but a powerful one and now they are making him seemingly a god. I kind of excepted Fenric more as he was seen as the embodiment of evil and he had people do is bidding so it would have made sense having people like Susan Twist.

Not sure how Mrs Flood plays into everything. Could she actually be Susan? She seemed a bit menacing but it could be a red herring.

[–] JVM1P5 (13) 13 days ago

Yep seems like they're bringing some of the novel stories into canon for this as in The Sands of Time, Sutekh is known as the God of Death, though having a look for more after remembering that I found this:

tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Sutekh

At Sutekh's funeral, almost the entire Osirian Court came to pay its respects. Justine and Horus agreed to tell the Court that Sutekh had been cornered on Earth by Horus' seven-hundred-and-some fellow warriors.

The Fourth Doctor repeated this claim to Sarah Jane Smith, saying that 740 Osirian's led by Horus had cornered and defeated Sutekh on Earth. Sarah recognised the name from the 740 gods recorded in the tomb of Thutmose III

As both the Doctor and Professor Marcus Scarman would later discover, Sutekh was entombed but alive in a pyramid in Saqqara in Egypt. The Doctor claimed that Horus left Sutekh in the tomb for seven thousand years by 1911. The Eye of Horus on Mars beamed a signal to suppress Sutekh's powers and hold him prisoner. The tales of the Osirian's were remembered in Egyptian mythology

So much like Norse Gods have been used in fictional stories even up until now as real Gods, that may be just what this is for Sutekh now based on that Egyptian connection in Whovian Lore and/or another part of the novels are becoming canon as I pondered (in The Sands of Time Sutekh is known as Seth).

Anywho that aside, overall I liked this episode and it has me looking forward to part two and where it will all head, as this appearance of Sutekh leads right back to The Giggle and seems to point to ramifications for banishing the Toymaker from existence. After all he did say as disappearing that that his legions will come for them and did mention the One Who Waits and of course the other part to that was the Oldest One being said in The Devils Chord. The other intrigue in all this is also in The Giggle when the Toy Maker folds up and disappears, an unseen woman picks up the gold tooth that contained the Master, does that all come into play as well, as we heard various forms of the Master laughing.

Overall great episode, the main thing in my mind is this all happening as a ramification of the Doctor splitting into to entities, does the Master fit in here at all to take it to the next season or special, could the Woman who picked up the Gold Tooth be Ruby's birth Mother, could The Master be her father (so many thoughts).

Lots to ponder here including back to that Richard E Grant looking Doctor in the scan holograms, as I said before could that be the Valeyard and does that fit in with all this somehow, especially the Master wise. This season so far is giving me pause for thought on the what if's and where is this headed, that hasn't really happened in a while, I'll stop now so as not to get too far ahead of myself to feel let down by my own imagination going wild and creating impossible to fill scenarios.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1016) 11 days ago

In Pyramids of Mars it does mention that Sutekh was worshipped as a god. If I remember correctly he may have influenced Egyptian religion but he was shown to just be a powerful alien.

Technically the toy maker may just be that, a being from a different dimension where the rules of our universe don't apply. How they tie together is the confusing thing as it is hinting at Sutekh being their leader yet he isn't even from their world but maybe this will be explained.

I am looking forward to the finale but also a little cautious. I feel that Ruby's mother may be revealed and possibly be herself but it feels like there's a lot to do in one episode.

One of my biggest criticism with RTDs original run as showrunner is that he'd leave most to the finale and have little time to fully explore it while as I found Moffat would try to reveal little bits throughout and also often the first part was great but the ending could be a bit anticlimactic.

RTD also has said he had no plans at the moment for the master but this could be a red herring. I do think the master could do with a few years off though.

[–] bozo_500 (12537) 11 days ago

Hopefully Richard E Grant will feature in the finale

[–] capuchin (2796) 12 days ago

As so often with modern Who two-parters from both RTD and Moffat, this one is all set-up and how I ultimately feel about the episode will depend on whether they stick the landing next weekend.

I can almost guarantee that it'll have too easy and too fast a resolution, because that's part of Davies's writing style. And it feels like there's a lot to tie-up in 45 minutes. It feels complicated... which is quite a far cry from where the season started, so I have to respect it.

Must say, however, I'm not that fond of Avengers-style UNIT. I kind of prefer them as a sort of blunt instrument military outfit.

Also, if I were giving notes to the writers, I might suggest that Kate Lethbridge-Stewart is now such a veteran character on the show that you don't need to bring up her father every bloody time she appears. There's a bit too much 'fan service' for my tastes.

But I enjoyed the episode. And I hadn't heard the rumours about Sutekh's return so I was blind-sided by that. But I did wonder if it was adequately enough explained to viewers who haven't seen Pyramids of Mars.

After a shaky start, I've enjoyed the season overall at least as much as I've enjoyed any other RTD season. It pretty much has all the things I did and didn't like during his last stint in charge.

[–] bozo_500 (12537) 11 days ago

I haven't seen POM but vaguely know of it and was made aware of its connection before i saw this ep so wasn't a surprise (not that itd have been any great reveal if I hadn't been spoiled, id have been abit confused and just figured 'oh that must be a villain from the old Dr Who like the Toy Maker, and the Whovians will be all in excitement about now')

Regarding the ep itself it was wasn't too bad, the vhs recreation was quite creepy (ripped off from Deja Vu), I'd tuned out of the new series after watching bits of the first 2 eps (space babies, Beatles) but I heard the bomb ep and 73 yards were good, i came back when I saw it was the last eps and wanted to see what RTD had up his sleeve for the finale

[–] capuchin (2796) 11 days ago

just figured 'oh that must be a villain from the old Dr Who like the Toy Maker, and the Whovians will be all in excitement about now'

Yeah. I figured that would probably be the general reaction. Casual fans can still understand it from context cues -- the Doctor's reaction and just the way it is built up to be a big deal -- but with The Toymaker they gave us a little flashback to Hartnell and Tennant explained about the last time they met. I thought something like that might have been useful again here, but maybe I'm wrong and it wasn't necessary -- although it felt like the episode was in too much of a rush to provide the information.

[–] bozo_500 (12537) 11 days ago

I'm guessing all that will be in the final ep

[–] capuchin (2796) 11 days ago

Yes. Probably. They'll find the time to explain a little of the back story at the beginning of Saturday's episode. But in a season where they've been quite explicit about their aim of a fresh start and a jumping on point for new viewers, it seems an odd oversight not to have taken a minute to do it here.

But maybe it was an exciting enough climax anyway, because I do think it would be clear to people that Sutekh is a big deal, even if viewers aren't familiar with who that actually is. So perhaps it doesn't matter if it's a new character or an old one: it just leaves the impression of a formidable Big Bad.

[–] bozo_500 (12537) 11 days ago

Even though RTD saying its a fresh start series 1 its in the age of legacy sequels so they just following the trends I guess, so much previous Who to pillage, also abit of a JJ Abrams 'mystery box' element at work through the season it seems

[–] capuchin (2796) 11 days ago

Yeah, the 'fresh start' is probably more in the marketing than in the actual substance of the show. It's no more and no less of a 'soft reboot' than it always is really.

And I don't think it's wrong to draw on the history of the show (although I don't like it when it dips into too much fan service. I still have no idea what the narrative purpose of bringing Mel back might be, for example. Compare and contrast with the re-introduction of Sarah Jane.)

I just think you can flesh these things out rather better for new audiences and thereby make their impact stronger for them. Again, compare Sutekh's reintroduction with The Master's.

But I'm not speaking from the perspective of someone who isn't already familiar with this stuff so I don't know for sure how it plays with a newbie. I may just be wrong.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1016) 11 days ago

I think Mel was brought in to kind of do a Sarah Jane and bring a classic companion to modern audiences.

She also didn't have a lot of back story in the series itself, often didn't get a lot to do. She was a tech person though so probably makes sense if the rumours about a possible UNIT spin off are true and at least they have done Bonnie some justice.

I think that while some fans won't know the history of Sutekh, they have built him up to show how dangerous he is and we'll probably get some information in the finale. Kind of like when the master returned.

I much prefer this over having 14 also existing as that is confusing for new fans and old

[–] capuchin (2796) 11 days ago

I think Mel was brought in to kind of do a Sarah Jane and bring a classic companion to modern audiences

Sure. But to me that isn't enough justification in and of itself. Sarah Jane's narrative function in School Reunion was to provide some insight into The Doctor's past relationships because at that time new audiences had only met one companion (Rose). And also to explicitly tie the show to the classic series in a way that it hadn't really done up until that point.

Just bringing back companions to hang around in the background is edging towards 'memberberry / Easter egg territory for me. And I tend to roll my eyes at that kind of thing. I don't think the show loses anything from a story-telling perspective if Mel isn't there.

I concede, however, that my opinions may be partly coloured by my liking Sarah Jane Smith and never having cared for Melanie Bush. So I'd probably have said the same thing about the show not losing anything if she wasn't there the first time around too. Ha and I daresay ha.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1016) 11 days ago

I suppose showing past companions can also help new viewers know that there are past companions and there will be future ones.

But I do get your point. I've seen people saying oh Rose should return and someone else etc. and it can get stupid.

I don't mind if it fits the story and doesn't feel too forced or far fetched. I did find Mel was a weird one to bring back but she was said to be a computer genius so at least she has a reason to work in UNIT as opposed to just having someone with no skills in the role

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1016) 11 days ago

Yeah this is basically a wait for the end episode.

However I feel usually there is a bit more of something but it's hard to explain. Like usually there's a build up, something happens and something is explored but it felt like this episode was like right we have this to do and this to do, like it's going through the dangling plot points.

The brigadier stuff I get but I wonder if that was for new fans to know.

[–] hurricane (1944) 11 days ago

I enjoyed it for the most part.

I somehow doubt Mrs Flood is Susan. Though, they seem to have mentioned Susan quite a lot this season.

Hinting that Susan would be there all episode when she wasn't, would feel pointless unless it goes somewhere. There wasn't really any need to keep mentioning her otherwise.

There's going to a lot of younger fans who won't know who Susan is. So it feels like introducing her as a previous character would be pointless if she doesn't appear, or play a part in some way.

I did notice that they introduced the idea that The Doctor has a Granddaughter prior to having children. So maybe they're going somewhere with that.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1016) 11 days ago

I heard Carole Ann ford was on set or at some event or something so it wouldn't surprise me.

Someone said maybe it will lead to the doctor just going to the future Earth he left her to see that she is okay. It does seem odd to bring it up as much. It would be nice to see the original actress return but at the same time it would need to fit story wise.

It will maybe tie in to Ruby not being able to go and see her mother so the doctor should when he can