MovieChat Forums > The Shawshank Redemption (1994) Discussion > Do we really need prisons in society des...

Do we really need prisons in society despite their MANY flaws.

posted 7 years ago by TheMan18 (12835)
27 replies | jump to latest

Hi everyone.

Just wondering.

Based on not only this film, which has encouraged its lead character to escape from prison and have it as a happy ending (not to mention the fact that he was innocent of what he was accused of doing) and showed various types of bad things happening inside from inmates AND even guards THEMSELVES, I kinda had to wonder, do we still need prisons despie their many flaws and all? Do they really serve their purpose of keeping society safe?

Considering the fact that either wrong people may end up falsely imprisoned for stuff they didn't do, the fact that violence and all other forms of injust deeds go on there, inmates and guards themselves are abusing, the fact that prison may often not rehabilitate the inmates etc or even make them worse... Do we still need prisons as such?

Also, why do a lot of people online say that if a violent offender goes to prison and becomes a victim of you know what, or even other violence, that they deserve it? Where are the good guys HERE? And even if you don't feel sympathy for them, what if on release he becomes worse as a result and poses a bigger threat to society?

Based partially on this film, and several other prison films I've seen, I got the impression that it was encouraging us not to respect the prison systems much at all, who is right here?

[–] TheMan18 (12835) 7 years ago

The thing is, I DO indeed agree that in theory, we need laws, police and prisons to keep the dangerous and other criminals out whilst allowing to reform prisoners.

But with ways in which it often does go, it seems as if on more levels than one, it can be counter-productive as well, both to prisoners AND society so it makes one wonder about it all beyond the fact that criminals should not commit crimes in the first place.

[–] TheMan18 (12835) 7 years ago

It also goes with saying, that when I think about men going to prison to be punished, I do NOT think prison r**e as a justified "just desserts" methods for such inmates, even if they WERE guilty of some or other form of often unforgiveable violent crime, and I have every reason to believe that this factor JUSTIFIES men or other people NOT going to prison for any circumstances.

Its a bit like - if I committed an offense and was taken to a mental hospital, I was NOT taken there so I can be beaten and abused in some or other ways, and if even threats thereof WERE there, I had and I SHOULD have every right in the world NOT to go to that place - the same should be for locking up prisoners and if people are cool with those things happening, then I consider maybe not only abolishing prisons in total but blowing up the world cause it shows there IS no GOOD in us in humanity and that human beings are totally HYPOCRITICAL as well.

Because an eye for an eye only makes the world BLIND.

[–] BiffGG (662) 7 years ago

We still need prisons but that is not to say that they do not need an overhaul in terms of how cons are handled. Andy was screwed in that a sentence for two murders was not going to allow for any soft jail time. Even if he were convicted of embezzlement it probably would not have changed the conditions much as the thought was before the 1960's that soft criminals would not reoffend knowing what it was like being with the worst of society.

[–] TheMan18 (12835) 7 years ago

The thing is, I know most otherwise normal, civilized AND intelligent people who have it in their blood that criminals must serve jail time, but even with evidence that it doesn't reform them and often the conditions, punishment, potential for wrongful imprisonments etc can be quite high, they rarely if ever fight for alternative solutions.

Oh and sorry for the spoilers, but did you know that Andy was actually INNOCENT of what he was accused of committing here?

That's right - he did not even "commit" those murders.

And those guards and people that run the prison were themselves criminals who abused their power AND broke laws so no real talk about "protection of good against evil" can really be generated.

[–] TheMan18 (12835) 7 years ago

Come to think of it, if we had no laws and prisons existing as separate organizations and in ways that they do today, would we as human beings be able to form our own laws and rules and punish people that wrong or hurt us in any way, and woud it always or at least in general be ethical/just/correct/appropriate and for the best of everyone?

I mean, sometimes when I go online and I hear and witness these types of discussions on forum boards, not 5 minutes pass by until I see constant arguments, swearing, flame wars and people indulging, even if it is al justifiable, in some or other forms of hate speech, which may not even be remotely helpful in the long run, and WAY too many people have often very different opinions or stances on some or other things, with civilized people often claiming that it is a problem in and of itself (so why doesn't ordinary people in society want to get along?), but the solution is rarely visible, and all of this happens with the world that currently exists in the way it does and with laws and prisons and police and whatnot being what they are.

But if they changed drastically and disappeared, would massive changes suddenly become and there will be less crime, less violence and therefore less internet arguments and angry reactions from people and humanity would automatically become more peaceful?

Would, if flaws and problems stil existed, humans and certain matters be simply divided into "good" and "evil" categories without any "grey matter"? Would ordinary humans in society all of a sudden become decent citizens by MERELY NT being criminals and not committing any crimes let alone violent ones themselves (ie they would never blame any victim of any crime, never indulge in discrimination, never have negative thoughts or desires to harm or kill someone especially someone who is INNOCENT and if they are UNSURE about SOMETHING, they would simply politely STAY AWAY and switch their minds to something ELSE, i.e more productive like job, educatio

[–] TheMan18 (12835) 7 years ago

n, getting a family, getting a driver's license etc and not think about total rubbish)? Heck, maybe police themselves would NOT be corrupt or racist, in America or ANYWHERE, and life would be in general like an action movie or a video game where good guys win and bad guys get it etc?

Cause sometimes I think, if we turned the situations around 180 degrees, would life ever be much more simple?

Or will humanity FOREVER crave for violence, selfishness, power, discrimination etc and therefore we will always need police, prisons, double standards and failures and internet flame wars themselves will go on forever and no we won't ever have simple divisions of good and evil just like that and humans will forever contemplate their own existence?

[–] strntz (11760) 7 years ago

....I kinda had to wonder, do we still need prisons despie their many flaws and all? Do they really serve their purpose of keeping society safe?

Yes.

But I do agree that the prison system as laid out is doing more to punish and far less to rehabilitate. My plan for a prison system would reduce recidivism, costs, and reduce jail time. I have no problem with the punishment aspect, but do believe that rehabilitation would do a lot for the taxpayer as well as the prisoner upon release.

This can be accomplished by making prison a truly lousy experience. Not tortuous in any way mind you, but make prison a place that no one would want to return to ever. Food should be three meals of "con-chow". A food stuff that's nutritionally complete and healthy, but otherwise similar to a cross between a breakfast cereal and dog food. When the chortling dies down, consider that more closely. I'm dead serious. Three meals of chow and fresh water daily. Maybe a once-a-month Sunday meal of regular food and perhaps on birthdays and holidays.

While it's satisfying to think a violent offender or child molester might get raped, it really causes nothing but harm and make the con more hardened. With this in mind, there should be virtually no interaction between prisoners. With today's technology, we can surveil every person and place in a prison. I think these types of interactions can be reduced significantly.

There should be no entertainment for prisoners. No TV, no radio, no internet, no gyms, etc. If they want music, then let them listen to piped in songs from the Great American Song Book. IMO, listening to Nat King Cole all day long would be a pleasure but that's just me. They should have access to educational materials in order to improve their lot in life. Even an internal school can teach basic things like cooking, managing a budget, etc.

To be continued:

[–] strntz (11760) 7 years ago

The trade-off for making prison less of a scout camp experience would be less prison time. For non-violent cons, reduce the prison time by half or even more. If all the perks of prison are removed and effort is put into real rehab, I think costs can be greatly reduced and recidivism can be cut dramatically, and a more useful citizen might emerge for the prison experience..

Given the whiny society we live in, I'm sure there will be plenty that will scream bloody murder and say this all is inhuman. It will become a political football and nothing will get done.

But maybe if a prototype prison as I've described is built and voluntary in nature, this can work. I know that if I was given the option of half the prison time and little chance of being attacked or raped in exchange for crappy food and no TV or internet, I'd take the less time served.

[–] TheMan18 (12835) 7 years ago

So in a nutshell, whilst they do need rehabilitation and whatnot, you would say that generally, yes they do, right? Oh and it goes with saying, maybe its just me, but I see no satisfaction in seeing even guilty violent offenders get violated there in any way, after all, the point of prison is to lock someone up and try to rehabilitate them for society's safety rather than have them there violated in any way, besides aren't the inmates (and maybe sometimes guards as well) often do it for their very own selfish reasons and not for benefit of any society whatsoever?

And let's say we had no prisons in the world whatsoever, would that make the world a better place?

[–] TheMan18 (12835) 7 years ago

2 strntz - and also, I get it that such "satisfactions" you were talking about exist as long as those people believe the offener is a man, right?

But more importantly, I often wondered indeed if we had alternative punishments to prison and the like, how would they work and could ordinary people themselves defend themselves against violent criminals if prisons ceased to exist in the traditional sense that they do today?

Granted, I don't want people OUTSIDE of prisons to be victims of various types of violent crime EITHER of course, and its true that if violent crime ceased to exist, not ONLY will victims not be harmed but perpetrators would stop being punished either (because there'll be nothing TO punish correct?) but until then, this means that in the world we live in, prison, flaws and all, is highly inevitable, right?

[–] strntz (11760) 7 years ago

...and could ordinary people themselves defend themselves against violent criminals if prisons ceased to exist in the traditional sense that they do today?

Not sure where you're going with this, but without prisons, there'd be anarchy. The weak would be far more victimized than they are now. As for me, my wife and I are both hold concealed pistol permits. I pray I will *never* need to fire my gun in anger but if it comes down to a violent criminal against me or my own, they will lose and they will never know what hit them.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

just out of interest how often do you carry the concealed pistol?
All the time? just after dark? in the house? only when in dodgy neighborhoods?

[–] strntz (11760) 6 years ago

We carry when we go to the shooting range. Neither of us has concealed carried yet in a social situation although many of our friends do. If things get worse in this country, then we will if forced by necessity.

We're just hoping the decay of American society slows, but it hasn't shown any propensity to do so.

[–] strntz (11760) 7 years ago

And let's say we had no prisons in the world whatsoever, would that make the world a better place?

I can't imagine how, and I have a pretty good imagination. Consider this: of all the societies that ever existed since modern man started walking uprigth, and in all the most remote places, they've ALL had some sort of prison system. This was something peoples everywhere decided they needed independently. The alternative (something that happened back in caveman days perhaps) was to either kill the offender or banish them from the tribe to fend and die alone.

[–] AP (5274) 7 years ago

Just because the US prison system is FUBAR'd, it doesn't mean prisons need to be abolished completely. I think prisons who be rehabilitation centers that give non-violent criminals the means to be productive members of society again.

[–] Moonglum9 (10963) 6 years ago

"I think prisons who be rehabilitation centers that give non-violent criminals the means to be productive members of society again."

Rehabilitation? You know, I don't have any idea what that means. It's just a made up word to me so that young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and tie and post on the internet.

[–] AP (5274) 6 years ago

But I look snazzy in a suit.

[–] Moonglum9 (10963) 6 years ago

Well you go ahead and type your damn posts, sonny, because frankly, I don't give a poop.

[–] strntz (11760) 4 years ago

ACCEPTED

[–] TaRaNRoD (1579) 7 years ago

*facepalm*

[–] jasonbourne (1027) 6 years ago

This movie wasn't about the prison system or penal system at all. It was about human character and how it reacts to unfair, brutally violent and hopeless situations. It's about how to keep one's innermost self and emotions when dignity and freedom is taken away from you and that in order to survive you have to accept the emotional pains and scars, drudgery, the debasement and at times fight for your life. One of the early big scenes is the Fat Boy weeping that he doesn't belong there and that he wants his momma. All of the fishes are feeling the same way, but it's the Fat Boy that couldn't hold back. It's not manly and disgusting to Captain Hadley, so he has to get rid of the feeling by sadistically wailing the tar out of Fat Boy. Hadley is well aware of what happens to new prisoners on their first night when the reality of their situation finally sinks in. It sank in for him when he was arrested and he couldn't hold back the tears and weeping.

[–] MovieManCin2 (26342) 6 years ago

Yes we do. What would your alternative be?

😎

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

I don't think it would be a good idea to not have laws and ways to imprison offenders. Especially in the case of very violent people who care little about the value of life. Without laws, society would be in a lot worse shape than it is now. Yes, it is not perfect, and never will be. But it is better than the alternative.
I will give an example. A few weeks ago, a convict that had been imprisoned for murder was released from prison because of the covid-19. Within a week, he had committed another murder. Our system is not perfect, but it is what we have now.