Had Bill not stumbled upon the secret society's ritual and revealed himself, would he have eventually been invited into the group? Bill is already close friends with Ziegler and his patients are among the elite of society, so one would think he eventually would be asked to join the cult.
shareHe is not close friends with Ziegler. He is invited year after year to a function where he 'doesn't know a soul' as a gesture. 'This is what you get'...
Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride
nope.
Bill is rich, not wealthy. why would they invite a servant into their society?
I think there may be a clue that in fact Bill or Alice or both DO join the group at some point in the future. Remember the scene at the Christmas party where Ziegler mentions his tennis game? Bill, shown to be an inveterate brown-noser throughout the film, oddly doesn't mention that he or Alice play tennis also. It would have been a good opportunity to suggest the two couples play doubles with the Zieglers sometime. And yet, Bill does not do this. Oddly, however, we see two tennis racquets against the wall in the Harford home in the very first scene of the film... where Kidman slips OFF a black dress. Incidentally, this is a different black dress than the one she wears at the Christmas party. Why was she slipping off a dress and not on, if she was getting ready for the party, and why is it a different one than the one she wears at the party? Does this suggest that this scene is in the future, that Bill and Alice do indeed take up tennis? If so, do they ever play doubles, and if so, with whom?
shareIt's implied that Alice might know a lot more than she's letting on. She might be part of the cult already...
I think Bill would have joined the cult if he was offered a place on the nights of his dream-wanderings, if indeed they were real, but I don't think he would have otherwise joined. Prior to his conversation with Alice about her dream, he didn't seem to be the type to follow through on his extramarital sexual impulses, and after the ordeal is over, I think Bill either learned his lesson and was wiser, or at the very least was "sleeping" and would have deliberately ignored it.
"Prior to his conversation with Alice about her dream, he didn't seem to be the type to follow through on his extramarital sexual impulses"
Say again? Bill was only moments away from doing it with the prostitute when Alice rang. Ziegler also interrupted him from being seduced by the two young women at the party when Mandy overdosed.
The impression that I got was that Bill would have gone almost to doing the deed, but not followed through; he'd have chickened out at the last second, even though he wanted to, even though he was sorely tempted. I think he wouldn't have actually pulled the trigger.
shareThe prostitute occurs after the party and Alice’s jealousy inducing monologue.
And Bill was in no danger of pumping the two flirtatious tarts at the party. They were trying to seduce him and he was enjoying the ‘dance’ but wasn’t going to risk his marriage over two random sluts, especially when his wife is in the next room.
Sorry, I think I got the prostitute confused with the two girls at the party.
There's an acceleration to this flirtation and possible cheating, though, and over the course of the film, he goes from flirting with danger (and not being ready to follow through on it) to going for it (and getting in over his head), to realizing all that his dalliances and indiscretions will cost him and his wife (and returning to his original state, or perhaps "past" it where he might not even flirt so much).
"And Bill was in no danger of pumping the two flirtatious tarts at the party."
I disagree, he tells them "to be continued" when he is dragged away to help Ziegler. He was also willing to participate in adultery with Domino and later with her roommate but circumstances intervened both times preventing him from doing what he would have done.
The later ones were different because by that point Bill was insanely jealous. At the party both Bill and Alice were tempted but they respected their marriage too much to cheat. The film is ultimately about putting those vows to the test.
shareI think Bill and Alice did join. The mask on his pillow was a sign. Alice probably entertained whoever left it. Bill and Alice gave the cult guys their daughter in the toy store near the end.
Milch offering his daughter to the Japanese tourists and later to Bill foreshadows that.
BTW "Milch" means "milk" in German.
"I think Bill and Alice did join. The mask on his pillow was a sign. Alice probably entertained whoever left it. Bill and Alice gave the cult guys their daughter in the toy store near the end."
Except there's nothing in the dialog in the final scene that indicates they are going to do that. At least not in the literal way that you suggest. Anyway, it's the daughter following after the old bald men walking away, not the other way around. It's symbolic. Her name (Helena) is a clue. By the way, Ziegler's wife is Ilena (a variation on Helena). Hint: The Iliad.
All good points.
shareHelen of Troy running off with Paris parallels Alice fantasizing about running off the naval officer which parallels Helena running off with the old bald men. More interesting than some lurid pot-boiler ending, I think.
shareHe would have joined in a flash 100%
But the center of the film like in most of Kubrick films is that hidden Elite class and an outsider trying to get in with them, Jack in Shining, Alex Makes a deal and Barry Lyndon all simiar themes.
Like people said at the top of the thread ultimate he was their servant, he was probably only invited to the party so they had a Dr on hand.
Thats what drives him mad in the second half and really hurts his ego, in the normal world he has reached the very top and is smugly cocky about his position in life, but then he discovers a whole new level that he is not welcome to and he can't handle it.
Never got the vibe that he was mad or suffering from a hurt ego by not being invited, more like he was trying to find out what happened to Mandy. He was clearly reluctant to get naked in front of them. I got the impression from that, that he just wanted to be a fly on the wall and not actively participate in the orgy.
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I think what i meant to say was that along with wanting to find out what happened to the girl and wtf last night was all about, there is also a little bit of frustration that hew has become aware of a new class of people that he is not able to impress.
The arrogance of his character hinted at from not knowing the babysitters name to how he acts around Nick 'once a Dr always a Dr' is like he feels entitled and better than everybody else even though he is polite on the surface, then when he is rejected from the party that must have been the first time in his life so the pursuit of Mandy is alsi a little bit of who the fuck are these people who turned me down.
Becoming a Dr is one of the most coveted and highest achievements you can attain but you are ultimately still a servant and i thought Bill was coldly waking up to that. whether he was conscious of it or not or in denial i don't know
I disagree with the notion that Bill was viewed as a "servant" or that he was merely invited to social events to have a Dr on hand. Ziegler clearly had a soft spot for Bill, since Nick Nightingale was punished for what was essentially Bill´s fault. Bill barely got a slap on the wrist. Ziegler maybe one of the elites, but he quite clearly considered Bill a friend. My personal opinion was the command to strip naked was a test to see if Bill would participate in a sexual ritual, since he hesitated, this ended any opportunity he had of "joining them".
shareThe protagonist coming into contact with the power elite was always obvious in EWS, but I hadn’t considered it for Shining, Lyndon and Clockwork. Good spot.
shareMaybe he would have joined if asked, but I can't see him being asked to join. He's rich but not super-rich, he's well-connected but doesn't seem to be part of a super-powerful super-wealthy elite family, and he works for a living in what the super-rich see as a service profession. To the super-rich, a doctor is someone they pay to solve problem and provide prescriptions, to the richest rich their doctor is on a level with the butler who manages the servants, or the dominatrix who relieves their stress, someone who is useful but who definitely isn't an equal.
Do you think Jeffrey Epstein saw his doctors as equals, someone he'd invite to party with power brokers, bazillionaires, and Prince Andrew? No, to an Epstein a doctor is just someone to take care of STDs and provide useful Rx's, to be rewarded with money and maybe some freebies, maybe an introduction to someone useful. But not invited to join in the VIP orgies.
Why are u comparing Ziegler to Epstein? Ziegler was one of the elites but still very clearly had a friendship with Bill.
shareYeah, that was a mistake, because Epstein wasn't actually one of the Elites. He just provided services to the elites, and they got rid of him when he stopped being useful.
My bad.
Well he was among the financially elite. With a net worth of $500M.
shareWho says Epstein was worth $500 mil? I ask because famous people are always claiming to have vast fortunes, and it's rarely true, and nobody ever checks on their real net worth.
Anyway, Epstein was not part of the billionaire elite, he was the pimp to the billionaire elite, a service provider and not an equal. And that's all the Tom Cruise character could ever have been to the elite club members, a service provider who could be very useful and who could be included in some functions... but he'd never be a member or an equal. He'd be someone who'd be gotten rid of, if they ever thought he was inconvenient, or that he might divulge a secret or two.
Epstein's net worth was speculated in the media at being around $500M.
I don't think being a "billionaire" was the qualifier to being part of the elite in Eyes Wide Shut. I'd argue Ziegler wasn't even in the ballpark of having a $500M net worth.
FYI "calculated by the media" always means that someone in the media pulled a number out of their ass. Never believe such numbers, because once some journalist pulls the number out of their ass, others will copy it, and call the copying "background research".
I don't know what makes you think its a false figure. Even if it was only $100-$200M he would qualify as being one of the financial elite. His New York mansion alone was worth $75M at the time of his death.
shareIt's "Milich" and it means "off Mile". "Mile" is a short version of many Serbian names. Like Mihailo (Michael) and Mike. So, Milich is a Serb, just like the actor portraying him.
shareNo. And his time in the group would be brief. They're still gonna kill him and his wife and take their kid as a pet. Too big a liability. They're not rich.
shareSomething that just occurred to me... perhaps Bill and Alice were *being* recruited into the cult at the party. Szavost was trying to seduce Alice (who ultimately declined) and the two girls were flirting with or seducing Bill until Ziegler interrupted. Had Alice not demurred and Mandy not OD'd things might have gone in a different direction.
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