The Beacon Scene - The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) Discussion

[–] JBran (1588) 4 years ago

No, beacons were used in history.

You should educate yourself. Probably a Trump fan.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

LOTR takes place in a fantasy universe, your point is nonsense. You should educate yourself. Probably a Harris fan.

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[–] JBran (1588) 4 years ago

I’m the fan of the winner, sorry that you lost, it must hurt.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Eh it's fine, I can man up and take it, I won't riot and burn buildings like the left does when they lose.

I see you've stopped arguing about the Beacons, I accept your concession

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[–] JBran (1588) 4 years ago

I see that your hero has not accepted defeat, there is no argument about the beacons, they were used in real life as in fantasy.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Whether or not they were used in real life is irrelevant kid and it's a non sequitur. This is a fantasy universe, the rules of our world do not apply. Your concession remains noted.

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[–] JBran (1588) 4 years ago

Ok son, you blew your own argument.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

You blew it the minute you started posting. Your concession remains noted.

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[–] ProgsReturn (1863) 4 years ago

The Lighthouse of Alexandria was, technically, a beacon, and one of the seven wonders of the world. Fun bit of trivia that will probably be lost on dimwits.

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

You do realize this is a tried, true and historically used method of communication?

At one point downthread you mention as being established that giant balls of light can be shot into the sky. Well, assuming that is accurate (very questionable in the book and somewhat in the movie) only the Wizards could do it and that means five whole people on the entire planet are capable of it. Not a very reliable method to rely on someone that may, or may not, be around.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Where are you getting this from? What line of dialogue says only a wizard can do it?

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

Who else? None of the elves ever displays anything like that ability. The only people on Middle Earth that display any magical ability are the Wizards and the Elves. I suppose you can count Sauron, which would be six, and maybe the Balrogs. But that is it. And they would be likely to be helping Gondor summon anyone.

Where do you get that anyone else is capable of it?

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

How do you know no one else can do it? Just because we aren’t shown someone else emitting a giant beam of light doesn’t mean they can’t (it also doesn’t mean they can). It sounds like you are speculating

You also strawmaned me I never said anyone else could do it, having said that it’s a pretty big story problem that we weren’t shown or told that it’s impossible for anyone else to do it aside from Wizards when it was clearly established that it is possible in this universe. It just makes the characters look like idiots

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

What nonsense. I'm speculating? Unless the material tells us something is possible it isn't. In the books AND the movie no one is shown to be able to fire balls of light into the sky. Gandalf projects light from his person, IRRC, twice; in Fangorn and when he races out to protect Faramir and his troops returning from Osgiliath.

At no time does he shoot light into the sky. But YOU are speculating that he can. If we grant you that such an ability is a reasonable extrapolation on his abilities, he is still the only person shown who can do it.

You have made a claim that this would be an more reasonable method than the beacon system. You have SPECULATED that it would be possible. So it is incumbent on you to support it with evidence that elves or men could do so. In the three movies of this trilogy none of those individuals, and we see a lot of them, including some of the most powerful people in Middle-Earth, show even the ability to shine, let alone shoot off light.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

The material told us beams of light were possible now it’s your burden of proof to prove that with anyone except a wizard it’s impossible. Also you asserted that it was only possible for wizards. Since you can’t prove that yes you are speculating kid.

Again: It was established that giant beams of light into the sky are possible in this universe. The way the film stands no one even considered doing that nor was it established that it was impossible for Gondor to do it. Therefore the film makes the characters look like idiots when they used an option that had so many avenues for failure yet it’s not established that they couldn’t have used a far more reliable method.

Kid no where did I say it was possible, I said the film never revealed to us it was impossible. You are really bad at this. Regardless of whether or not we actually see Minas Tirith doing this is irrelevant, the film tells us they went with a very stupid decision without even considering other options that would have been less likely to fail, it doesn’t even need to be a beam of light I just threw that out there because it is an objective fact that in middle earth beams of light can be shot into the air that can be seen over great distances. You don’t know much about this do you kiddo?

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

Don't call me kid. I'm likely older than you are.

In fiction (and I'm sure you don't believe me) the world is always assumed to be as we know it until we are told something different.

First, we are not shown giant beams of light are possible. We are only shown that Gandalf can glow. We are only shown throughout the films that only Gandalf can do that, and only after he becomes the white wizard. We can therefore logically infer that only wizards can do it.

The use of the beacons is implying, and most people obviously can infer, that they are needed because men cannot shoot out light.

Tolkien specifically set the Lord of the Rings in the distant path of Earth. The men of Middle-Earth are our ancestors; they have exactly the same abilities, and no more, than we have, with the exception of long-life of the Numenorians granted by Manwe through Iluvatar.

I have read a lot of fiction and seen a lot of movies. In none of them does the media tell us that normal people can do extraordinary things. When there are extraordinary abilities displayed by characters it is always the case that only those extraordinary characters have the extraordinary abilities. It seems odd that you seem to have expected Tolkien to expound on a list of all the preternatural abilities that men do not possess.

Generally, in fiction and in life, it is incumbent on the person making the extraordinary claim to prove it. You are making the extraordinary claim. In three films full of characters of multiple races, men, elves, dwarves, orcs, and wizards only one wizard is shown able to glow.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

I will call you kid as long as you continue to behave like one

And we were told that beams of light that could be seen over great distances were possible yet we were not told that it was impossible for Gondor to do it, that's a plot hole and a major story problem.

Uhhhhh remember when Frodo and Sam were at Minas Morgol? The beam of light could easily be seen in Minas Tirith which is some distance away. Again kid if it's not possible that's fine but the movie should have addressed this because it makes the characters look stupid by immediately going to one of the worst plans imaginable (the beacons)

"The use of the beacons is implying, and most people obviously can infer, that they are needed because men cannot shoot out light."

More speculation on your part and it's dismissed, try again son.

If you have to deflect to the book then that's proof the movie can't stand on it's own and its a piece of garbage.

This is set in a fantasy universe, Middle Earth does not have to abide by the laws of nature that we have to, premise debunked

It's not odd at all, I expect the universe that we are in to have clearly defined rules and restrictions and Peter Jackson obviously did a horrible job at this.

Yes you made the claim that it was impossible now you have to prove it. I never once said it was possible kid. You are the only one making a claim.

" In three films full of characters of multiple races, men, elves, dwarves, orcs, and wizards only one wizard is shown able to glow."

First of all it's only one film, secondly the fact that we don't see a man producing a glow doesn't mean its impossible, it doesn't even have to be by supernatural means, it doesn't even have to be a beam of light you idiot, all I said was that automatically going to an option that had so many avenues for failure was stupid when they didn't even consider anything else and in this universe it seems there were several other options that should have been considered that would have been more reliable. Burden of proof is still on you junior.

EDIT: Also you are appealing to your own ignorance which is a logical fallacy.

EDIT 2: Also you never proved that the beam of light from Minas Morgul was produced by supernatural means, for all we know the beam of light was composed by the Wraiths making some kind of chemical soup that exploded and gave off a green flame.

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

You don't really know what acting like a kid is, do you. You are, however, showing all the signs.

Being a fantasy does not mean everything is possible. Indeed, it is a mark of bad fantasy if that happens. I am unfamiliar with any piece of fantasy, filmed or written, where anything is possible, especially to the average person.

"First of all it's only one film, secondly the fact that we don't see a man producing a glow doesn't mean its impossible,"

Three films. All three films in the Lord of the Rings are one story. And again, if we are not shown men can glow then the inference is it is not possible. By your logic why don't they pull out their radios and call for help that way. After all, we are not shown nor is it stated that radios don't exist.

You reference a light from Minas Morgul. So we are shown that, possibly, the Witch-King can do it. I doubt he'll do Gondor a favor.

MovieChatUser497, you really have demonstrated that you do not understand logical argument. You whip up "its possible" and "its not said its impossible." You claim they should have discussed other possibilities for the beacon. You do not understand that since they do not discuss other possibilities that the only logical inference is that none exist.

I suggest you do two things. Take a course in debate and take a course in creative writing. You currently show an abysmal command of either.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Yes I do and you are behaving like a child, grow up

Then Peter Jackson should have indicated that the beam of light was not possible for Monas Tirith but he didn’t and therefore our characters look like morons

No it tells one story LOtR is one film just like Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Parts 1 and 2 are one film. They just chopped it into pieces

Prove it’s not possible, we don’t see the men taking a dump so is that not possible. You asserted it wasn’t possible so prove it son.

It was never established that radios exist in this universe it was established that beams of light do, bad analogy on your part

How do you know the witch king did it?

You are the one pulling random assertions and speculation out of thin air, all I’ve asked you to do is back up the claims you’ve made and you continue to speculate and just make things up. You are so bad at this it’s not even funny. Are you mentally challenged? That’s not meant to be a put down but if you are I need to lay off of you and ease up because that makes me a bully. Regardless you are the worst debater I have ever come across and considering some of your competition that’s really saying something.

As it stands you have not proven that a beam of light from Gondor is impossible therefore the movie needs to reveal to us why they couldn’t do it so the characters don’t look like idiots for going with a really stupid plan.

Game set and match, you are the weakest link , goodbye son

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

You are impossible. So I will probably stop. Calling me "kid" is an ad hominem argument, easily one of the weakest, useless and most reprehensible of the logical fallacies.

And you will post that you accept my concession. That is the kind of meaningless and witless thing I would expect from someone with your posting history and inability to argue like an adult.

What I will give you is my observation that you have severe problems. You do not understand literature, films, or any narrative art.

You think my radio example is bad. Okay, how about this. Wizards are not men or elves or orcs. Only a wizard is shown to produce light. Ipso facto, only wizards can do it. No man (or woman) is shown to do it. No elf is shown to do it. No dwarf is shown to do it. No orc is shown to do it.

I mentioned the Witch-King since he is the person (entity) of power at Minas Morgul. But you SPECULATE that the wraiths might do it by mixing some chemical soup that explodes. But of course, the Witch-King is a wraith. And it is equally likely, if it is a chemical soup, that it is a military secret. And, if you speculate chemical soup, a scientific process, why can't they make radios.

How do you appreciate, or derive pleasure, from any move or book. None of them do what you want them to do. None of them spend precious time or words telling you what is not possible.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Nope I’m just treating you the way you’re acting, get over it kiddo.

I’ll go ahead and accept your concession since you don’t seem too interested in discussing the facts or backing up your assertions, maybe next time you should do your homework first

Wrong just because we don’t see them doing it doesn’t mean it’s impossible. If you said you didn’t accept that they could do it id be fine with it but instead you said they couldn’t which is completely different and you can’t prove it’s impossible therefore you need to man up and admit you’re wrong

I never said they could make the beam of light by chemicals however you said it could only be produced by magic so you have to be able to prove the soup of chemicals isn’t possible . I’m not making this up all I’m asking you do to is back up what you’re saying and so far you’ve failed on every front.

There are plenty of books and movies I love because they are well written and the characters are likeable heck I love the LOTR book you might even call me a LOtR fanatic , the movie adaptation was a total piece of garbage and the beacon scene is just one example. Peter Jackson obviously had no respect for the source material, the 1978 cartoon version was more faithful.

Game set and match. You lose junior

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

As predicted.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Do your homework next time junior.

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6032) 4 years ago

He is truly a special kind of ignorant. Don't feel bad moviechatuser497 is the biggest joke on these boards.

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

Yes, why I replied to him in the first place I don't know. He always follows this pattern and is incapable of rational discussion. I should have resisted the urge.

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6032) 4 years ago

He will just do mental gymnastics on any discussion where he is proven wrong or challenged. He's been doing this for years.

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[–] Costumer (1803) 4 years ago

Yeah, I've seen it. I've even debated him before. A useless exercise. For more profitable to talk to reasonable people who can civilly discuss issues even if they disagree.

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[–] Volley (3387) 2 years ago

I rewatched this yesterday, and I realized while watching that there were men up there in the mountains literally waiting their entire lives to light those beacons. They probably hadn't been lit since the Wainrider War 1500 years earlier. That is insane. The beacons had to be manned on rotation every single day for thousands of years. Except there is no easy way up those mountains, and no one is going to live up there because there is no food to eat or animals to kill.

This being what I noticed in Jackson's film, I am sure there are perfectly reasonable explanations in Tolkien's actual writings.

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[–] stickman38 (3039) 2 years ago

Nope, not even close to being the dumbest thing ever in a movie.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 2 years ago

Yes it is

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[–] zmeyka (192) 7 months ago

One wonders.. what do you do if it's pissing rain outside, or the wood is all wet.. how the hell are you going to light up a fire and make it last hoping that someone will see it..! And about that.. what if the two guarding the Big pile got killed or were dead..!?? :p

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[–] thingmakersback (1273) 6 months ago

Oh, man... Don't get him going again. There was a roof on the beacon tower. You can tarp the fuel if there's rain and even somewhat wet fuel would burn with that oil. Good maintenance, when there is a threat in view, like for the last few decades, does not seem unreasonable. The beacons are high and inaccessible but, yes, a wise enemy might disable the system by attacking the guards.

The thing is, the beacons make perfect sense in any "realistic" world where magical or technological communication is unavailable or unreliable. Wizards can't be relied on. We have it in the film that Gandalf, comes and goes and is not altogether trusted and the palantirs are few and secret and creepy/dangerous.

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[–] Darren (1195) 6 months ago

I hate to break it to you, but this exact sort of system was used in historical reality. The Byzantine Empire, beginning in the 9th century AD, erected a system of fire beacons that stretched across 450 miles of Anatolia from the border with the Abbasid Caliphate to the Byzantine capital of Constantinople. The beacons were spaced about 60 miles apart over most of that distance, with the distance being reduced to 35 miles across the more broken terrain of Bithynia. Modern experiments have shown a message could be transmitted the entire length of the line within an hour. It's one of the things that enabled the Byzantine Empire to endure so long, despite repeated Muslim attempts to conquer it. The emperor in Constantinople could be made aware of an Arab incursion into the Empire in about an hour, rather than having to wait days or weeks until someone physically carried word from the border, which was the only other way back then.

So what you are calling the stupidest thing you've ever seen is actually a historically attested method of emergency communication, that worked pretty much exactly the way it was shown in this movie.

As the saying goes: way to tell me you're completely ignorant of history without telling me you're completely ignorant of history.

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