Hard to believe they "went there" and made humanity into [SPOILERS] - Eternals (2021) Discussion

[–] FilmBuff (6759) 3 years ago

It isn't quite as you say. The Celestials seed a number of planets, and once every million years, a new Celestial is born. From his birth new galaxies are spawned. So no, intelligent life isn't "just fertilizer for celestial cultivation." Rather, a tiny number of planets are sacrificed in order to perpetuate life in the universe, as the Celestials are the source of the energy that powers the universe. Think of Celestials as batteries, and once every million years a new battery has to be made to power all the new galaxies that will spring up, but one planet must be sacrificed for this to happen.

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[–] ExTechOp (2770) 3 years ago

That's a much nicer and more precise way to put it, I'll admit

Either way, though, it's interesting that earth and humanity have thusfar been portrayed as somehow "special" in the MCU, and in this film we're reduced to just another intelligent species who "pulled the short straw."

This film does, at least potentially, explain why that one celestial in "Guardians of the Galaxy" (from the Collector's PowerPoint presentation) used the power stone to raze an apparently harmless population. It wasn't personal; just making a new celestial.

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[–] Goliard (1413) 3 years ago

Except NONE of that makes a lick of sense.

I wanted to rate this film higher, but the more you think about it, it just doesn't hold together. The best (speculative) fiction makes use of bedrock concepts we already know; the Eternals movie breaks down IMMEDIATELY when you consider what we know about how the universe began/persists.

There's a case to be made for fiction that posits alternate facts. . .even wildly ridiculous ones. . .As Long As It Stays Consistent within its assumptions. But Eternals doesn't even do that.

On the plus: some strong performances, beautiful people, beautiful photography, cool visuals, and (IMO) the right amount of fanservice. 6/10

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[–] FilmBuff (6759) 3 years ago

What doesn't make sense to you?

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[–] Goliard (1413) 3 years ago

1) The "explanation" of how stars are born/life is created
2) The concept of the universe somehow "failing" if Celestials stop creating new stars/planets
3) The timing of cosmic events (clearly the writers don't know/care about the age of the Universe, or its underpinnings/development)
4) The creation of a race of artificial "Eternals" that are constructed w/the potential for disobedience
5) (By the same token) The need to lie to them as to their purpose
6) (Related) The memory wipes
7) The scale of the Celestial that was partially "born". . .based on what was shown previously, it was WAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion
8) The conceit that the various Marvel-genius-level scientists would be unaware of a Celestial incubating at the Earth's core
9) The conceit that the various races among the Marvel Universe would be unaware/unconcerned with the Celestials' program
10) The ill-defined and contradictory relation between the "gods" of the MCU and the Celestials/Eternals (there's already an Athena, etc)
11) The poor narrative fit with what the previous phases described (Thanos' snap would've, statistically, HAD to have killed a few incubating Celestials)
12) etc.
13) etc.
14) Etc. . .

At a certain point, I stopped counting the absurdities and just tried to appreciate the movie for the (many) things it did well.

Free and open confession: I'll probably buy the steelbook when it comes out. Shrug.

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[–] FilmBuff (6759) 3 years ago

Most of your complaints come down to the same thing: in the Marvel Universe science is different than in real life. Well, yeah. In real life being bitten by a radioactive spider doesn't turn you into a super-human, and the Gods of Asgard don't roam the Earth. The rules are different because we're dealing with super-beings.

I believe number 7 was a matter of them catching it just as it began to form. The implication is that it would have continued to grow in size as it absorbed and assimilated the Earth into its new body.

Why would any scientist, no matter how bright, ever suppose that billions of years ago, a seed was planted in the earth's molten core? And who's to say various races are unaware or unconcerned, although as it only happens on one planet out of trillions, and only once every million years, odds are no one but the most highly-powered cosmic beings know about this, and they are likely indifferent as it keeps the universe running.

Remind me where the other Athena was introduced, and keep in mind that it was made clear that the Earth's myths were based on stories told of the Eternals in the distant past.

Finally, Thanos' snap most likely didn't have any effect on the Celestials, as they are cosmic beings, and they predate the Infinity Stones. But if the snap did kill some, so what? Five years later they came back. Since they only hatch one at a time, with a gap of a million years in between hatchings, I think they're good.

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[–] Goliard (1413) 3 years ago

"Most of your complaints come down to the same thing: in the Marvel Universe science is different than in real life."
Mmm. . .either I'm not explaining myself well, or I need to amplify. Because that is NOT at all the problem, here. You can't handwave fundamental concepts away w/"science is different," because fundamentals of physics are fundamentals of physics. Or people could just flap their arms and fly to the moon, because "gravity works different in the MCU.:
To amplify:

"In real life being bitten by a radioactive spider doesn't turn you into a super-human,"
Case in point. It's simple enough to posit some unknown type of "radiation," and some only-in-the-MCU metagene, and (pow) superpowers, or Banner + gamma = Hulk, etc. This is WORLDS different from fundamental concepts such as how the universe/galaxies/planets are formed, or their relative ages. Hope that's clearer.

"The rules are different because we're dealing with super-beings."
The rules can be different; fundamental concepts can NOT. There are things we Know that the writers either didn't, or didn't care about.
It's immeasurably worse because *internally* the logic/"science" doesn't even work, given what we've seen in the MCU till this point. I know, I Know: there's a SLATE of movies to keep straight, and that's a Lot. Which is why I just sat back and watched the pretty pictures, after a while.

"I believe number 7 was a matter of them catching it just as it began to form. The implication is that it would have continued to grow in size as it absorbed and assimilated the Earth into its new body."
Nah. As I said, the scale was COMPLETELY off, for one thing. And the cycle was definitively explained: it grows to completion, then emerges from the planet, destroying it.
[cont'd]

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[–] Goliard (1413) 3 years ago

"Why would any scientist, no matter how bright, ever suppose that billions of years ago, a seed was planted in the earth's molten core?"
Again, not what I was saying. Not sure your background, but today we have a Really good understanding of the size, composition, formation and continuing evolution of the planet. Add in a world populated by Starks, Reed, Doom, etc, etc. . .there's no WAY the intelligentsia wouldn't know about a huge life form gestating inside the planet.

"And who's to say various races are unaware or unconcerned, although as it only happens on one planet out of trillions, and only once every million years, odds are no one but the most highly-powered cosmic beings know about this"
Which is what I mean by internal consistency. What we've seen in Thor, Guardians, Avengers etc. is enough to tell us that, if the process the Celestials describe is how planets/life is created/destroyed, the highly advanced races would KNOW. And that's not the type of knowledge that would stay compartmentalized. Everyone would Know. The logic just falls apart, at that point.

"Finally, Thanos' snap most likely didn't have any effect on the Celestials, as they are cosmic beings, and they predate the Infinity Stones."
Thanos killed half of ALL LIFE. That would include the Celestials. And no, they do Not predate the stones.

"But if the snap did kill some, so what?"
LOL. . .do you really think that would be the attitude of all-powerful space gods?
"Five years later they came back"
They had no way of knowing the Avengers would be able to do that. And they (clearly) made no moves in that whole endeavour.

I could keep going, but most of this is basic logic.

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[–] FilmBuff (6759) 3 years ago

The movie opens with a line something like "before the formation of the Infinity Stones were the Celestials," so I think it's clear they came first.

More to the point, we saw in the film a guy fly from the Earth into the Sun under his own steam, which is practically your flapping his arms idea. This really does come down to "it's a comic book." If you were willing to accept that six magical rocks exist that can allow someone to bring trillions of living beings back from the dead, I think it's reasonable to accept that the energy in the Marvel Universe is produced by the birth of a Celestial. Nothing in a comic book makes sense, and nearly all of it violates the basic laws of physics.

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[–] Goliard (1413) 3 years ago

"The movie opens with a line something like "before the formation of the Infinity Stones were the Celestials," so I think it's clear they came first."
Except previously, we were told that "Before creation itself, there were six singularities. Then the universe exploded into existence, and the remnants of these systems were forged into concentrated ingots... Infinity Stones."
Bottom line: shrug.

"More to the point, we saw in the film a guy fly from the Earth into the Sun under his own steam, which is practically your flapping his arms idea."
No, it absolutely is Not. That wasn't a "guy," that was Ikaris, who was created by impossibly powerful space gods using unknown materials and engineering specifically to be able to do that. That's WORLDS different from redefining how physics works, or how the universe/suns/planets exist, or any of the other scientific principles we Know to be true. Sorry, it just is.
"If you were willing to accept that six magical rocks exist that can allow someone to bring trillions of living beings back from the dead"
Yes. Because, this is a foundational concept in this world-building effort that does NOT torture the laws of logic and/or physics.
"I think it's reasonable to accept that the energy in the Marvel Universe is produced by the birth of a Celestial."
See, that *would* be reasonable. . .but that's not at all what this movie is saying.
"Nothing in a comic book makes sense"
Not True.
"And nearly all of it violates the basic laws of physics."
Meh. Much of it. Nearly all? Nah. Not Doc Strange, not Black Panther, not Spider-Man, or Iron Fist, or Luke Cage, or Thor. That's just off the top, and just Marvel, and just the "powered" characters.

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[–] Strazdas (2328) 2 years ago

>You can't handwave fundamental concepts away w/"science is different,"

You can. Its called magic.

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[–] Goliard (1413) 2 years ago

Two months later, you've missed the point.

They didn't claim any of these things happened because of "magic." They (very specifically) tried to explain the *science* behind what happened.

And their "explanation" doesn't make sense. Period.

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[–] Strazdas (2328) 2 years ago

They didnt try to explain anything specifically. All the magic in MCU is "technology". Does not make it any less magic that Thors hamer fires thunder just becuase they call it technology.

Yeah, the explanation sucked, on that we agree.

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[–] Goliard (1413) 2 years ago

No. No, no, no, no.

There's no "technology," when describing what Dr. Strange does. Or Dormammu. Or Loki, or. . .etc, etc, et cetera.

And you were apparently sleeping through a LOT of this movie, because Yes: they most certainly DID try to explain things "specifically." I won't go over (yet again) what they tried to explain. . .it's what this entire thread has been discussing. Feel free to (re)read.

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[–] R_Kane (15828) 3 years ago

“Marvel genius-level [ANYTHING]”—wonderful phrase. BWWWAAH-HAHAHAHAHAHA😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Somebody get me a paper bag! I’m hyperventilating!

Holy SHIT, that is funny. Talk about words that don’t belong together . . .

Thanks for your post, my friend. It made my night.

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[–] Goliard (1413) 3 years ago

Um. . .you're welcome? 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎

Haven't heard your take on the movie, yet. Thoughts?

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[–] Strazdas (2328) 2 years ago

You have to realize that this movie takes in a universe where magic, norse gods and a whole list of other things that dont follow bedrock science concepts exist and are recognized. Id say having sapience somehow power cosmic energy that fuels the galaxy isnt even the craziest thing they did.

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[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7468) 3 years ago

I admit I haven't read any Eternals comics nor do I know about the characters. But frankly my least favorite thing is that it shows some of the Greek Gods are just lackeys of celestials and that there is no Olympus. If that's part of the comic it's based on then my complaint goes for the comic too. Just seems a rather offensive thing to anyone that's a fan of Greek Mythology. I have been told Jack Kirby didn't intend it to be part of the Marvel Universe. He wanted it as just its own series.

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[–] ExTechOp (2770) 3 years ago

I thought Russell Crowe's playing "Zeus" in the next "Thor" film.

That'd mean in the MCU, Greek gods are like Norse gods, i.e., myths based on high-tech aliens who visited earth long ago

"Eternals" leans into that notion by stating, explicitly, that the myth of Icarus flying too close to the sun was invented by Sprite to troll Ikarus, and it became part of humanity's Greek mythology.

In other words, in the MCU, the Greek pantheon includes both Eternals and whatever it is that Russell Crowe is playing.

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[–] Strazdas (2328) 2 years ago

Greek gods were lackets. Norse gods were the real deal.

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[–] ExTechOp (2770) 2 years ago

We haven’t met all the “Greek gods” in the MCU yet.

We know that the Eternals were the basis for SOME of the Greek pantheon, along with the Mesopotamian myth of Gilgamesh

But we also know, from the cast of “Thor: Love and Thunder,” that Russell Crowe is playing a character named “Zeus”

Presumably, in the MCU, both Eternals and god-like aliens gave rise to Greek mythology

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[–] Costumer (1798) 2 years ago

In the comics the Greek gods were real, as were the Norse, Egyptian, Indian, Japanese, and, indeed, all culture's gods. The Eternals were confused with them and, conveniently for the narrative, had similar names. But the gods and the Eternals were distinct beings with different origins and purposes.

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[–] Owlwise (1508) 2 years ago

I read the comics when they first appeared on the stands, and you're absolutely right: Kirby did not want the series to be part of the Marvel Universe. Nor was his vision of the series in any way like what later writers & the film made of it. Frankly, they severely twisted & diminished his vision, turning the Eternals & Deviants into just one more batch of generic superheroes & supervillains. But lesser writers have always done that to Kirby's work, so this latest travesty of it is no surprise.

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[–] Goliard (1413) 2 years ago

You reading the current Eternals series? Agreed 1000% on Marvel (CONTINUALLY) f*c&!ng w/Kirby's vision (no, This is what happened! No, *this* is what Really happened!") but the book's not bad. And the art is AMAZING.

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[–] AmeriGirl26 (12636) 3 years ago

Just remember that this is Chloe Zhao's interpretation, not what was actually in the comic books. She was using this whole movie as a metaphor to justify abortion. That and she was probably watching the Matrix movies too much.

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[–] Owlwise (1508) 2 years ago

It wasn't Kirby's vision at all. Every iteration of the Eternals after Kirby has gotten the concept wrong, and this movie is built on those wrong-headed concepts. Kirby envisioned the Celestials as equivalent to gods, unknowable & incomprehensible by anything human. They had visited Earth long, long ago & experimented on the native primates, creating three species: Human, Deviant, Eternal. The return of the Celestials was to observe the results for 50 years & decide if they were worthy of preservation or destruction. The series was about the need for the three species to learn to trust one another & work together in order to prove their worth to their creators.

Even in the few issues published, it was clear that the Deviants were more than faceless monsters, while the Eternals were sometimes a bit too above it all, with humanity caught in-between. There had been a relationship between the Deviant Kro & the Eternal Thena in past ages, one that Kro wished to revive. He could be ruthless, but he also showed passion, genuine desire, ambition, and the ability to be far more than just a villain. And Ikaris, who normally would have been the alpha male superhero in any other series, was a bit of a dunderhead, even to his fellow Eternals. It was a nuanced series with enormous promise, one that Kirby wanted to be kept separate from the Marvel Universe. Unfortunately, Marvel immediately pressured Kirby to link it to the Marvel Universe, and they finally cancelled it before Kirby could begin to explore all the ideas he had for the series. Those who followed thought they could "improve" on Kirby by turning his concepts upside-down & making it just one more good guys vs. bad guys comics series. Alas.

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[–] ace2 (545) 2 years ago

Humans are special here as well. Keep in mind that the Eternals have done this over and over, and this is the planet that made them change their mind, because we are special. At least if what you were saying was true it would be original.

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