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My thoughts about the whole abortion thing going on in the US.

posted 5 years ago by samoanjoes (53060)
47 replies | jump to latest

First I must say that I'm a white male who is not American. I have been on the fence about the whole subject of abortion.

I'm against abortion being used as birth control. 1/4 women in America have had an abortion. I'm aware of things like rape and deadbeat fathers being a reason for abortion but 1/4 leads me to believe too many women are doing it because they've had unprotected sex and want to reverse the mistake. I've seen A LOT of online comments of people saying that it should be legal regardless of rape.

I never liked the argument of, "it's my body and the government can't tell me what to do with it". None of us can put drugs into our body and cross borders. You can't sell your on body parts/organs. We can't masturbate in public. None of us can be a threat to ourselves without someone checking up on our well-being. If someone murders a pregnant woman, they will be charged with both, not just for the pregnant woman.

Having said all that, I think that Missouri and Alabama has gone way too far. Women should be allowed to have abortions in cases like rape. I could even understand knowing your child would have some "deformity" and wanting to abort it because of feeling bad about having a child suffer. The 99-year prison sentence is just comical. 99 years? Really? I'm thinking more like a fine. There has to be nuance with the subject of abortion.

It's okay if you disagree with me, like I said, I'm on the fence.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] samoanjoes (53060) 5 years ago

I don't disagree but I feel that, for example, if a child wants a cookie and you don't give it to them because they misbehaved and they steal it from someone else, that doesn't change the fact that the child didn't deserve the cookie in the first place.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] snepts (11123) 5 years ago

Sorry. I was so confused by his post I didn't take the time to read yours. Says the same thing as me.

[–] samoanjoes (53060) 5 years ago

The analogy was the best I could come up with from the top of my head.

You mentioned that making abortions legal would stop people from getting back alley abortions. Some people could say that they shouldn't be getting an abortion to begin with so it shouldn't be legal just to stop them from doing it anyway, just safer. For the cookie analogy, the child was bad and didn't deserve the cookie but went behind the parent's back and stole the cookie. The parent shouldn't give the misbehaving child a cookie in fear the child would steal it from somewhere else.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 5 years ago

Yes, government infantilizes people and treats them like children, exactly. Thats why this analogy of children and "permission vs punishment" is so fitting: Because there are no other analogies.

All of human psychology, concept after concept, warns against things like government because it is an easy answer, a one size fits all solution.

The WORST things government does, however, are the things no one wants it to stop, because they are the biggest temptations, and therefore also the temptations least likely to be linked back to their cause.

Economic manipulation and criminal justice.... both of these things are done in destructive, downward spiraling, exponentially accumulating ways.

[–] snepts (11123) 5 years ago

I don't understand this analogy.

[–] Buttsavitch (23) 5 years ago

I understand your analogy. I think this law criminalizes the dealers rather than the users like in the drug war.

[–] Drusilla (536) 5 years ago

Are there actually still back alley abortions with hangers? My Aunt had one back in the 60's and no coat hanger was involved even then.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] snepts (11123) 5 years ago

Respectfully, I disagree with most of your reasoning, and was a little surprised you ended up recommending a fine, haha.
I don't agree that women can have unprotected sex then have no recourse if they find themselves pregnant. People may find the idea of birth control after-the-fact repugnant, but the reality is this will go on in every town across the world. Always has and always will. Lets start banning homosexuality while we are at it. I thought we were supposed to be making progress here. Not to mention what the life of an unwanted child might be like, and the fact that over-population is at the heart of every modern problem we have. Do we want a state like Alabama (!) telling us what's right and wrong? They bombed a church and killed little girls and no one has ever been held responsible and no one has been compensated for it. Sheesh, what gall !

[–] samoanjoes (53060) 5 years ago

Thanks for your civil response. There are other reasons other than rape that I would support abortion on. I'm just mostly against using it as birth control. I recommended a fine because prison just seems too excessive. Community service just didn't seem right either. A fine would work as a deterrent.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] snepts (11123) 5 years ago

The remark about homosexuality was only meant to contrast how far we've come as a society, and to try and roll back the right to choose for women I find very troubling. I like Seth Myer's female writers last night demonstrating what it's like to not have control over their bodies. Very funny and direct. At the end Seth asked what can he do as a man to help this cause. All the women yelled, "Vote for more women !" No way in heck this nonsense would be going forward if only women were able to vote on it. And we have a ridiculously biased Supreme Court at the moment. It's really disheartening.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] samoanjoes (53060) 5 years ago

Though I agree, I can see how someone considers it murder and would personally have a problem with it.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] Buttsavitch (23) 5 years ago

Alabama's governor is female.

[–] snepts (11123) 5 years ago

And she can't have children, goes to church regularly and is a tool of the conservative wing. Alabama should be hanging it's head in shame. It should be revoked as a State in the Union, along with most of the rest of the South. What a shameful legacy, and they are proud of it.

[–] sslssg (30334) 5 years ago

I am 100% pro choice. If it is against someone's religion to have an abortion, than they should follow what's best for them and not have an abortion.

I know there are a lot of people out there who want children desperately and are unable to conceive. My heart breaks for them. I actually am adopted, and honestly more than a couple of my friends are as well. I think adoption is a wonderful thing, but it is still a choice.

So many of these states that are banning abortion, also are making it incredibly difficult to get birth control. I'm pretty sure that this is because of religious reasons. If they were really against just abortion, one might think that there would be more sex education, and access to effective birth control.

This seems to me (and I have been known to be wrong) that it's more about controlling the poor. Rich people will still be able to go out of state or country. Those same people who won't be able to have abortions are also the same ones that the government is trying to dictate what they can and can't buy with food stamps. I don't know about those states as I'm not American, but what sort of maternity leave is available? Day care subsidies?

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] snepts (11123) 5 years ago

Here, here. I'm glad you brought up the concept of Control. These people simply want to get their way regardless if it's beneficial to society. They don't like that educated people are getting more and more influence and resent their antiquated views are going by the wayside. With the combination of old money and an uneducated base, they hope to have effect on issues, and this is an ugly example of this.

[–] Buttsavitch (23) 5 years ago

Blacks, women, young people, poor people... these are the groups associated with being uneducated. They're also the main constituency of the Democrat party. As for old money, well I don't think you can find a better demonstration of inordinate corporate influence than in the response to this act of democracy. Corporations are boycotting the state over this. Has any corporation ever boycotted Washington DC for starting all those foreign wars? Has any corporation ever boycotted NYC on account of bank bailouts and inequality? No. Do you really think they care about abortion this much?

[–] snepts (11123) 5 years ago

Stick to the subject. Are poor people the main constituency of the Dem party? If you say so ... ri-i-ight. Who brought up corporations? Not I.

[–] samoanjoes (53060) 5 years ago

I agree. If there was more access to stuff like day cares, it would make a huge difference. I think it would be great to implement some sort of system that helps single mothers whose deadbeat boyfriend or husband leaves them instead of feeling the need to get an abortion because they couldn't afford it.

[–] Buttsavitch (23) 5 years ago

Condoms are available in every convenience store. Birth control pills (which are horrible for your health) are much harder to get and much more expensive because you're required to have a prescription filled by a doctor. That goes the same for the whole country. Ironically, it's Republicans who have tried to make birth control pills legal over the counter, and Democrats who keep voting it down. Democrats have their own ways of controlling women, you just don't hear about them.

You said government is trying to dictate what people can buy with food stamps. Read that again. Dictating what people can buy was the entire purpose of creating food stamps rather than just giving people cash. Next you suggest there should be maternity leave and day care subsidies. Tell me again who is trying to dictate what we can buy. I say give them the money and you're going to discover very quickly that no one would willingly spend it on your overpriced child warehousing operation.

[–] sslssg (30334) 5 years ago

Condoms are very unreliable birth control, also a lot of men don't like wearing them, especially after they are married. There are many other forms of birth control, but they aren't covered by insurance in the US as companies can dictate what is covered. In Canada, most birth control is covered by both government insurance and private insurance.

I don't really care which government is in power in the US, these specific laws are the ones that I am talking about. They are not aimed to really help any of the problems. Rich people can go out of state. Poor people cannot, and jailing women?? They should also be jailing the men who got the woman pregnant as well, as they are required to make a baby as well.

We don't have food stamps, so I don't really understand how they work, but to say which foods can be bought seems a bit...controlling?

As for maternity leave and day care, well, in my country, a family is allowed 1 year of parental leave. You cannot be laid off, and that year can be split between parents if they choose or the dad could take it instead. That money comes from the money that the employee pays into unemployment insurance. Day care subsidies help low income families be able to afford childcare so they are able to work. I don't see how that is dictation or handing anyone money. They subsidy goes to the daycare, not the parent, and the daycare charges the parent less. I don't really understand what you are referring to with overpriced child warehousing either.

[–] snepts (11123) 5 years ago

You simply make up stuff to fit your view. Repubs have tried to make birth control pills legal over the counter? News to me. But since they are horrible for your health, I guess that makes sense.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

So many of these states that are banning abortion, also are making it incredibly difficult to get birth control. I'm pretty sure that this is because of religious reasons. If they were really against just abortion, one might think that there would be more sex education, and access to effective birth control.

It also seems like they are against proper sex education being taught in schools.

[–] bohemianroxie (2471) 5 years ago

I will always be pro choice because since the beginning of recorded history women have been held captive, controlled, ostracized, trivialized, subjugated and manipulated due to their ability to procreate.

Until the last 40 or 50 years women's lives were completely ruined if they had a child out of wedlock, if they enjoyed sex they would be shamed to keep them under control since men had to be certain of their linage and they had to be certain their property did nothing to make them feel less manly. They were put to death on occasion or abandoned for not bearing the right sex or blamed as barren if they didn't conceive.
Women's entire history is tied up with their ability to bear a child and someone else always wanted to control it.
I'm not anti male but the facts are the facts and I guess many men found the past historical society conducive to their needs because it sure wasn't to women..

No, I don't think abortion should be used as birth control and late term abortions should only exist within some extraordinary circumstances. And yes, things have changed from the way they use to be. But this is one area that the government should keep their nose out of..
And unless I've been dreaming I believe abortions are way down from the past. Why are they acting like it has gone rampant?
No body wants to get an abortion ..Everyone is pro life.
But everyone should own their own bodies and their own life. Even pregnant women.
Telling women how to control their bodies never worked out so well throughout recorded history. Why should they trust it now?

[–] Buttsavitch (23) 5 years ago

Humans have been around for millions of years, and they've been wrong about everything until now? Why did men suddenly decide to liberate women from their own oppressive grip?

I think spite is a very dishonest reason to be pro-abortion. I suspect I'm much more pro-abortion than you are. For example, do you think a woman should be allowed to sell her fetus? Do you think a woman should be allowed to screen her fetus and selectively abort it if it happens to be undesirable in some way such as having Downs Syndrome? How about screening for something politically incorrect such as homosexuality? How about just plain old population control? Should a man be allowed to financially "abort" if he doesn't want it and the woman does?

Anytime you catch yourself being angry at men, just remember this. You do own your own body. A man doesn't. A man gets circumcised, and sent off to die in war. That could be you. You're lucky. You see, men don't "subjugate" women. Men are in competition with other men, for women.

[–] db20db (16572) 5 years ago

You see, men don't "subjugate" women

I think you're the one that needs to open his eyes and relearn the meaning of the word subjugate. Try to tell that to this woman and others like her https://moviechat.org/tt6116682

[–] R_Kane (15828) 5 years ago

Homo sapiens, i.e., we humans have been here for 200,000 years, far short of “millions.” Human civilization dates back roughly 60,000 years.

Ignore.

[–] bohemianroxie (2471) 5 years ago

I'm not angry at men..not in the slightest.
I love men.
You missed the point and seem a little angry yourself.
Spite has nothing to do with it.
History does.
That's all it is.

Some of the examples you gave should be between the people involved and not the government.

I also realize that there are times men may be treated unfairly as well.
And I'll fight for them too.
If you'd seen some of my previous posts then you'd know I already have

[–] slimone (7996) 5 years ago

I am pro-choice for women. They have the right to control their body in every way. The government has no right to interfere with a woman's choice.

[–] Buttsavitch (23) 5 years ago

Are you circumcised?

[–] Buttsavitch (23) 5 years ago

Alabama is also considering making it a crime for a woman to make a fraudulent rape accusation.

[–] sslssg (30334) 5 years ago

If it can be proven false, then it should be a crime. The problem with this is that rape itself is difficult to prove, especially when men are the victims of a woman rapist. It could prevent victims coming forward. There should be a distinction between someone being found not guilty, and an actual false allegation because just because a person is found not guilty it doesn't mean the rape didn't happen.

[–] samoanjoes (53060) 5 years ago

That's the unfortunate thing about rape and sexual harrassment. It's extremely difficult to prove. It would also be difficult to prove someone not being found guilty and a false rape accusation. It would be nice though of it was easy.

[–] elcamino (15540) 5 years ago

It takes longer with this economy to get a guy to marry you now than 3 months. Pregnant has always been a thing to get him to say yes. If he still says no you will be forced to carry the child but really going all the way to delivery time is dragging your feet on a decision.Using rape is just a con as it will be known pregnant and gotten rid of before 3 month time period.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

"Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey on Wednesday signed into law an extreme abortion ban, citing "Alabamians' deeply held belief that every life is precious and that every life is a sacred gift from God." She has also presided over the state sanctioned killings of six people under Alabama's ...."

so This is all down to religion, I understand the US has a bible belt ....
and becasue laws are so localised in the US people are effectively living under the law of some made up story book
I guess the catholics chucked in the "every sperm is sacred" clause in order to boos their popularity