Waco - General Discussion Discussion

[–] Moderator5 (1285) a year ago

Wait, are you the really real Dazed?

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

Yes ask me anything

reply

[–] Moderator5 (1285) a year ago

Name of the recording artist that inspired your original screen name?

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

David Bowie, the song Somewhat Slightly Dazed.

reply

[–] Moderator5 (1285) a year ago

Wow, it is indeed the lady herself. Welcome back! It's been a minute. I hope you are well.

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

I'm impressed that you remember my username! I am well thanks, older and wiser. I hope you are doing well too.

reply

[–] BeaSouth (3003) a year ago

I’d love to know the background to this exchange with Mod5. How long have you been gone and why did you take a break from the site? What’s the history with Mod5?

reply

[–] ItsGood2BeRight (3879) a year ago

That was pretty interesting.

reply

[–] moviechatterer (14476) a year ago

[deleted]

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

I was here for some time shortly after imdb ended.

reply

[–] BeaSouth (3003) a year ago

Man, I was thinking it’d be more interesting than that based on Mod5’s reaction to your return.

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

It toyally is but I'm trying to reintegrate without too many ripples

reply

[–] BeaSouth (3003) a year ago

Okay. Welcome back. Apologies for prying.

reply

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (11115) a year ago

It's actually "Unwashed and Somewhat Slightly Dazed". Take a shower, lady. 🤣

I didn't know you're a Bowie fan. We should've bonded over that!

reply

[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a year ago

Are you getting that from watching the Showtime series?

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

I found it on Netflix

reply

[–] GlenEllyn (21307) a year ago

Hello Dazed! Happy to see that you're back.

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

Hello! How are you doing?

reply

[–] GlenEllyn (21307) a year ago

I'm still here! I'm doing well, all things considered.

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

Yup, it's been a weird few years for sure.

reply

[–] rex (2854) a year ago

[deleted]

[–] WandererFromYs (2039) a year ago

What exactly did you expect?

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

I was previously under the impression that it was badly mishandled but the reality seems to suggest that there was never going to be an easy way to deal with the situation given the character of Koresh.

reply

[–] WandererFromYs (2039) a year ago

It was still badly mishandled. They never should’ve proceeded with the raid after Koresh was tipped off. There wasn’t an imminent threat. They should’ve delayed it and came up with a different plan.

They also could’ve detained Koresh when he when he was away from the compound before executing a raid. I remember hearing that he jogged every morning, so he probably would’ve been hard to get to.

reply

[–] jriley555 (7359) a year ago

I agree. He was determined to go out burning. Add to his mayhem the inspiration for Timmy McVeigh's slaughter in the OKC bombing.

If we want to point fingers, what about all the mensfolk he had utterly emasculated in his cult, who let him take their women and abuse their children.

They spent WEEKS trying to talk that mofo down. If there is ever a do over, they should have a sniper take out the next Koresh, and try to deal with whoever is left.

reply

[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a year ago

While I disagree with what Koresh did I disagree that what he did justifies being murdered as he was and what you suggest.
They should have been more patient and waited him out longer or as Wanderer above brings up, detain him when he was out jogging.

reply

[–] jriley555 (7359) a year ago

I don't buy that he was out jogging. You don't think they would have nabbed him ?

reply

[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a year ago

According to this, and other places I have seen it, Koresh was away from the compound.

DAVID KORESH: I'm the kind of guy that I'll stand in front of a tank. You can run over me. But I'll be biting one of the tracks. No one's going to hurt me or my family. That's American policy here. He could have arrested me any day as I jogged up and down this road. He could have arrested me going to town and going to Walmart. The two agents (ph) across the street over here - Robert Gonzalez. I love the guy. I was honest with him. I brought him into my home. You know, he wanted to tour around the place. I promised him a tour. He could have talked to any of these guys around here, anybody. He was free to come and go as he chose. God speaks to me. I have a message to present. You may not (ph) believe that.
DAVIES: And that is David Koresh inside of his compound in Waco while he was surrounded by federal agents. We should note that David Koresh, he was wounded in the battle - right, Jeff Guinn? - had a - was hit on his side. He had chipped a bone in his hip and then also in his thumb and fingers. So he was not comfortable here. He makes an interesting point here. Why didn't they arrest him outside the compound? Would there not have been an easier way to do this?
GUINN: ATF could have and should have arrested David Koresh outside the compound. They bungled it completely. He left the compound frequently. This never should have happened. He should have been arrested away from the property.

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/npr/2023/01/25/1151283229/30-years-after-the-siege-waco-examines-what-led-to-the-catastrophe/

The ATF probably invaded instead of arresting him peacefully to have a show of force after they blew Ruby Ridge.
At least that is what I got from watching the Showtime mini series Waco which is based on true stories.

reply

[–] jriley555 (7359) a year ago

If he was outside the compound after the initial rate they certainly should have nabbed him. The siege went on for many days, it would be interesting to know at what point he was still available for arrest individually, as they came to understand his recalcitrance.

All that said, Koresh was the author of his own and his cult member's fate. Some of them were smart enough to get out.

Cults are frightening little pathological clumps of humanity. I'm not inclined to be indulgent of their leadership, or averse to intervening in their control networks. If there is abuse going on (which there usually is), they should be deconstructed, since the free-agency of cult members is in many ways systematically compromised by the 'handlers', cult control mechanisms.

reply

[–] WandererFromYs (2039) a year ago

They couldn’t just arrest him because he wasn’t a criminal. They needed to do a raid to be able to charge him with anything.

However if they had understood that he had total control of the group, they could’ve detained him for something. It wouldn’t stick, but it would be enough for him to be out of the way when they went to raid.

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

Exactly. As you point out, it's truly baffling that he was abusing those children right under the noses of their parents. The continued loyalty of some of the surviving cult members is insane too. I mean, sane people upon hearing him proclaim himself the messiah would run away! Add to that his arsenal of weapons and it beggars belief that they felt safe.

I had no idea that this cult existed peacefully before Korean.

reply

[–] WandererFromYs (2039) a year ago

He was able to do that because he normalized it. Their belief system said that a child came of age at 12. So he could openly be with them in front of their parents, and everyone accepted it. David Koresh married his first wife when she was 14.

reply

[–] Keelai (33405) a year ago

The Feds completely mishandled the situation by treating it as a hostage negotiation instead of a cult. Most if not all of the children in the compound just before the fire were Koresh's.

They considered the outside world as the devil, so they weren't going to surrender their souls, especially their children, to the sinful devil. Better to physically die, but have your soul saved mentality.

The Fed's or local law enforcement could've phoned Koresh to come into town (like they had on a previous occasion) since he was cooperative in the beginning and was frequently jogging and running errands.

reply

[–] ItsGood2BeRight (3879) a year ago

A lot of those people died for nothing. Scientology is a far worse cult than David Koresh's sex club.

reply

[–] TheRealDazed (85) a year ago

It's so strange that someone like him could convince people that what he was doing was fine.

reply

[–] Keelai (33405) a year ago

Lonely people want to be part of a community. They want to feel special or more important than everyone else. Add meaning to their lives by fighting for the "greater good".

Usually an emotional need. Leader treats them nice, at least in the beginning, and offers them the above. Different cults appeal to different ideologies, but they're basically the same.

Flat-Earthers, Koresh cult, street gangs, Islamic terrorists, domestic terrorists, Trumpists, Scientologists, QAnon, Rev. Jim Jones cult, etc..

reply

[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a year ago

Which ones did not die for nothing?
The ones who rightfully shot back at the ATF in self defense?

I am not crazy about Scumtology either.
How is that one worse which did not get invaded and everyone murdered by the FBI?
Not that I am arguing.
Just wanna know what you think.

It is insane how the Feds went after them and the way they did with children in there.
Which makes them worse than the Koresh Kult and Scumtology.

reply

[–] ShogunofYonkers (74419) a year ago

I agree that the Federal response was heavy handed and poorly
planned. A classic siege could have brought them all out safely once food and meds ran out. I feel like this was an example of the Feds flexing to the detriment of everyone.

If you have a weirdo cult surrounded it seems safest to just put scopes on them ‘til they begin starving and they call it quits.

86 dead and who knows how many got winged. What a mess.

reply

[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a year ago

I dunno or may have forgotten why the Feds didn't wait them out either until they ran out of food and water.
Here are a couple of good reads on it which explains things in more detail and are not that long or compared to books on the subject.

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/npr/2023/01/25/1151283229/30-years-after-the-siege-waco-examines-what-led-to-the-catastrophe/

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/19/17246732/waco-tragedy-explained-david-koresh-mount-carmel-branch-davidian-cult-30-year-anniversary

reply

[–] ShogunofYonkers (74419) a year ago

Thanks for the links, much appreciated.

There was some speculation that Koresh was sexually abusing children inside the compound so violent action had to be taken but jeez! What a horrible result for everybody involved in the whole fiasco.

reply

[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a year ago

Yeah, I dunno exactly what he was doing with the kids.
I do think he gaslighted himself, and others, into him being some kind of messiah based on the bible and with him declaring himself as the only one who could have sexual relations with wives and underage girls was wrong but he should not have been killed nor anyone else.
Overall they were not hurting anyone and just keeping to themselves.

reply

[–] ShogunofYonkers (74419) a year ago

Aside from the persistent rumors of child ‘brides’ there was evidence that the compound was receiving an enormous amount of weaponry and parts both legal and illegal. Clearly the authorities had to go out there for a look around.

reply

[–] ItsGood2BeRight (3879) a year ago

No one can explain better about Scientology than Leah Remini.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ0-VeWMr-A

reply

[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a year ago

I watched the HBO doc, have watched those anti Scumtology shows Leah did on A & E and read some from the book written by Miscavage's niece where they used her and other kids for child slave labor at one of their properties.
And this crazy cult was all started by a pulp Sci Fi writer and they somehow believe that it is all real with Xenu???

They are all bad or just more proof that religion is poison.

reply

[–] ItsGood2BeRight (3879) a year ago

I'm sure in the beginning the Captain only did it for tax purposes and then when he tasted power it probably made him feel like Jesus.

reply

[–] WarrenPeace (2267) a year ago

Rumor has it that it started as a bet as to who could make the most money from getting followers or believers in what they created.

I think they finally got the tax break not that long ago or after Ron had died.

reply

[–] BillHicksFan (10302) a year ago

Like anything else.. Just yesterday, I watched a Stalin documentary, but from their point of view.

reply

[–] ShogunofYonkers (74419) a year ago

Can you post the title of the Stalin doc Bill?
I find Stalin very interesting, maybe only Ghengis Kahn had more people killed.

reply

[–] BillHicksFan (10302) a year ago

Of course. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/8p2lVW-coFU

reply

[–] ShogunofYonkers (74419) a year ago

Much appreciated Amigo👍

reply

[–] BillHicksFan (10302) a year ago

👍

reply

[–] ShogunofYonkers (74419) a year ago

[deleted]

[–] ItsGood2BeRight (3879) a year ago

No audio?

Edit: NVM it's on my end LOL

reply

[–] jriley555 (7359) a year ago

Evidently 1 in 200 (mainly asian) men are lineal descendants of the fellow. There are others who also cut a wide genetic swath in human history :

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.16767

reply

[–] [deleted] a year ago

soviet propaganda

reply