MovieChat Forums > Gone with the Wind (1940) Discussion > Rhett was 17 years older than Scarlett?!

Rhett was 17 years older than Scarlett?!


It's never specified in the movie but in the book it's said at the end that Scarlett is 28 and Rhett is 45. Maybe at those ages it's not too bad, but it's very weird when you think that when they first met Scarlett was 16 and Rhett was 33?! I mean, nowadays a 33-year-old man being attracted to a 16-year-old girl would be seen as perverted and creepy. Rhett was older than Scarlett's mother. Was this just not that big of a deal and more normal in that time period? That's all I can think. I love the book, but at the same time it kind of weirds me out that Rhett is that much older than her, especially when Scarlett was still a teenager.

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I mean, nowadays a 33-year-old man being attracted to a 16-year-old girl would be seen as perverted and creepy. Rhett was older than Scarlett's mother.
Yes, indeed 👍
Frances Folsom, who was 21 years old, married President Grover Cleveland, age 49, on June 2, 1886, at the White House. This was the only time the President married in the Executive Mansion. Their age difference of 27 years is the second largest of any Presidential marriage (behind that of President John Tyler)
from Wikipedia.
Frances Folsom was born 150 years ago, on July 21, 1864, to Emma and Oscar Folsom. Grover Cleveland was Folsom’s law partner, and he doted on baby “Frank,” as everyone called Frances. He bought her a pram; he babysat her as “Uncle Cleve.”

Cleveland was dependable, little Frank’s hero. Wishing her the education that poverty had denied him, he got her into Wells College, which offered women rare academic rigor.

Frank thrived. Gov. Cleveland sent flowers. Asked why he hadn’t married, he quipped, “I’m waiting for my bride to grow up.” Everybody thought he was kidding.

President Cleveland proposed by letter while Frank was in college, sweating her reply like a schoolboy. Upon graduation, Frank sailed for Europe to sightsee and purchase her trousseau.

Cleveland wanted privacy for her return. Eluding dockside reporters, his secretary, Dan Lamont, intercepted Frank’s homebound liner, slipping her onto a cutter, then into a Manhattan hotel.
from; https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/the-first-celebrity-first-lady-frances-cleveland/2014/06/27/a4a9bdf4-dd4b-11e3-bda1-9b46b2066796_story.html

Times have changed, haven't they😎; "creepy" is no longer mistaken for "romantic".

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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wow, that is weird....but I guess that kind of thing was the norm at the time. The book also mentions that when Scarlett's parents got married, Gerald was 43 and Ellen was 15, which is pretty disturbing

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Parents wanted their daughters to marry men who could provide for them. This often found them married to an older man, often a widower, who was financially stable. Girls were not expected to be able to do anything to care for themselves, especially the upper classes, so they went from their daddy to another "daddy". It still happens, though mostly in foreign countries because Americans find it "creepy".

Rescue the damsel in distress, kill the bad guy, save the world.

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Grooming young girls is pretty creepy.

But apparently - it was rich mens hobby "back in the day".

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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That is not what I said.



Rescue the damsel in distress, kill the bad guy, save the world.

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Yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying.

I am of the opinion that grooming young girls for sex (and unequal partnership) is creepy.

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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It was for marriage. They weren't going to work at the local bordello.

Show me an "equal" partnership even in 2015. Someone always has the upper hand. And in my experience, it was my Ex-wife who was a year older than me! If there is a next time, IF, I will be choosing a younger bride. Not a teenager, no thank you, but younger than me.

Rescue the damsel in distress, kill the bad guy, save the world.

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Ok - I have no idea what does your ex-wife have to do with any of this, but thank you for sharing.

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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His response correlated to your quip of unequal partnership. There us always unequal partnership to some extent to any relationship. One is always more influential than the other. In his case it was his wife who had the upper hand.

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marriage was not expected to be an equal partnership in the 19th century. However, the marriage of Scarlett's parents appears to have been happy in its way, gerald clearly adores his wife, and goes to pieces after she dies. likewise Ashley dotes on melanie, even if he doesn't fully realise it. And Scarlett clearly has the upper hand in her first two marriages.

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The actual phrase is back in the old days.

Back in the day? What day? Last Wednesday?

Sheesh. Literacy.

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I'm coming in late, but in some english speaking countries the phrase 'Back in the day' is used more than 'back in the old days'.
Don't be so pedantic!

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Different times, different society. In the book, Scarlett's mother Ellen was 15 when she married her father Gerald, who was at least Rhett's age. No one at the time would've thought twice about it. Men could marry at any age; women were considered old maids if not wed by their early 20's. And given the high mortality rate at the time, women typically married and started bearing children in their mid-teens.

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Hell, I THINK my grandmother was 16 when she got married and that was circa 1922. My grandfather was "only" 8-9 years older, I think and not especially well-off economically. But Grandma did tell me decades later that she always regretted getting hitched so young. I would think that many of those 18th- and 19th-Century young brides may have had similar regrets.
May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?

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Is that how it was in the US? In Pride and Prejudice, a book written in the early 1800s, marriageable girls were early-mid 20s, and late 20s almost an old maid like Lizzie's best friend Charlotte.

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Scarlett may have been 16, but she was in full-time husband-hunting mode, because that's what girls of her age did at that time and place. In the books, she goes to Atlanta after being widowed for the first time, and starts going out to balls and other events. She realizes that at nineteen and with a child she's considered over the hill, all the young men seem more interested in girls of sixteen!

And yes, Rhett is that much older, but men could marry much later than girls. If a man needed to work he was expected to establish himself in his career before marrying some teenaged nitwit, if he was wealthy it was okay for him to spend a few years having affairs with women he didn't marry, before marrying some teenage nitwit. So Rhett in his early thirties was considered a bit old for a bachelor, as most men of his age had already married, but he was so rich and handsome that nobody would consider his age a problem. All the matchmaking ladies and ambitious mothers in the region would be trying to set up him with teenagers.

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Yeah, the fascination with "age gap" is a modern phenomenon. Say what you will about it but people were in many ways more reasonable, and less inclined to act like 12 year-old girls, saying, "creepy." What's more baffling to me is the insistence on marrying cousins. It's something I've seen in a few movies dealing with the Old South. "Gone With the Wind" is the most recent one. One can see the practical reason for a girl marrying a wealthy older man. It's harder for me to see the practical reason for marrying an albeit distant cousin.

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It's harder for me to see the practical reason for marrying an albeit distant cousin.
Simple - consolidating wealth.

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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Another reason for marrying a cousin may have been the difficulty in meeting suitable "outside" partners. Imagine a world without singles bars, dating services (online or real-world), available, affordable modes of transportation, co-ed schools, few women in the workplace and most females, regardless of class, living at home until leaving for marriage. I don't think we moderns really can conceive how constricted the world once was.
May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?

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I read once that the top three places to meet your mate ,were church, school, and work. Back in the day, it would have been church, weddings, funerals, dances,picnics,or perhaps relatives or family friends would come for an extended visit and the families would hope for a match to be made. If you fell in love with your neighbor, the old girl/boy next door, that was probably a bonus.

Marrying cousins kept property and money in the family. Religion was also important.



Rescue the damsel in distress, kill the bad guy, save the world.

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I don't think it's creepy as girls back then were seen purely as wives and baby makers - therefore they need to get married young when there is the most chance for them to have plenty of healthy babies. 16 is the age of consent in my country (not sure about others) so I don't see it as creepy as she is shown in the film as being very sexually aware - pursuing the men rather than being a little innocent victim...

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If you're referring to Scarlett, she definitely was NOT sexually aware.
Sure, she loved the chase, but not the result!

Her first husband had to spend his wedding night in an armchair.
Scarlett hated sex, perhaps in part due to her Catholic upbringing, and it was only after her "night of passion" with Rhett (which some posters have labelled rape), that she was finally sexually awakened.
Trouble was, Rhett was no longer interested in her, and spent his time either with Bonnie or Belle Watling.

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How do you make the leap about her Catholic upbringing preventing her from enjoying sex? Sounds like you have some presumptions about Catholics you need to examine.

The novel makes plain that most women's lack of comfort with sex had to do with society and the time. After the awakening you mention, Scarlett thinks, "A lady, a true lady, could never hold up her head after such a night." "Ladies" weren't supposed to enjoy sex. Also, Rhett had previously said to her that he knew that women thought they "must bear 'these things' for the joys of motherhood...I bet you've never discussed the marital relation with a man, not even Charles or Frank." Her response was to glumly wonder how he came by his insights into women - "He knew too much," she says to herself.

Nowhere does the book say Scarlett "hated" sex. She was simply ignorant and uncomfortable with it.

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Scarlett might have not discussed the marital relationship with a man, but I'm sure she heard plenty about it from her strict Catholic mother who drummed it into her head that marital sex was for procreation and for doing her duty to her husband's desires.

And Scarlett DID hate sex: "…a certain male madness, unshared by females…".

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You're probably unaware of plenty of Catholic nations who were and are stereotyped for being passionate, sexual, and sensual people.

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So was Elizabeth Taylor!
May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?

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[deleted]

There was nothing perverted or creepy about it THEN. Unmarried females of twenty or twenty-one, even in 1960s America, were considered old maids, and this was a century after the Civil War started. When my youngest maternal great-grandmother married at the age of sixteen in Fulton County, Georgia, it was considered normal, and when one of my other maternal great-grandmothers married she was much younger. In those days in Spain, when the older sisters married, all of them did whether they were sixteen or not. It was a village custom when all the girls reached puberty. This particular great-great-grandfather was a tyrant who wanted all of his daughters married and out of the house before they were too long in the tooth. I suppose he needed the dowry money.

When this movie, GWTW, was filmed in the late winter of 1938/spring of 1939, the stars were not considered too old for their roles: Vivien Leigh was twenty-five; Clark Gable was thirty-eight, Olivia de Havilland was twenty-two, but Leslie Howard was at least forty-four, and was made to look like twenty-five-year-old Ashley Wilkes with tons of pancake makeup. Since Ashley is thirty-seven by the time the novel ends, this wasn't so hard to manage. Vivien Leigh was perfect for the role of Scarlett and seemed ageless in the part.

Today any woman of twenty-six could portray sixteen-year-old Scarlett O'Hara simply because she would pass for a teenager, provided she was believable as the character. I had no problem with Joanne Whalley Kilmer playing the title role in the mini-series Scarlett in 1994 because she wasn't that much older than Leigh had been in 1938. My chief concern then was that Mrs. Kilmer wasn't wearing green contact lenses.

Today, however, no Western man of thirty-three could date a girl of sixteen without raising a ruckus (or being put in jail), but it seems that a few men several decades ago did raise that racket and still managed to get away with Professor Humbert type behavior: Fortyish Bill Wyman of the Rolling Stones, lived with underage Mandy Smith from the time she was thirteen until he married her when she turned eighteen in the early 1990s.

Soon thereafter Woody Allen caused a firestorm when he fell in love with his common law wife Mia Farrow's adopted daughter Soon Yi Previn, who may or may not have been at least eighteen when he first had lascivious thoughts that turned into carnal consummation of the no-no variety. Woody at the time was more than twice Soon Yi's age. Today, of course, they are husband and wife. It still seems shocking, and was totally scandalous in 1992.

One who didn't raise a ruckus was tennis great Ivan Lendl, who had simply waited until his longtime girlfriend Samantha Frankel reached the age of seventeen, whereupon they began to live together without parental chaperones. She first caught his eye when she was fourteen, but he did later marry her.

Another who raised eyebrows, but who never suffered the consequences, was the married modeling executive John Casablancas, who was well into his forties when he left his second wife to live full-time with fourteen-year-old cover girl Stephanie Seymour. He didn't go back to his wife (a model whom he married in 1978 when she was only 19), and he didn't wed his teenage Lolita, but he helped make Seymour one of the all-time great catwalk queens. In 1992, he married his third wife, yet another model, who was then just seventeen. He was still married to wife number three when he died in 2013 at age seventy with no regrets.

All of these couplings occurred in the extravagant 1980s and early 1990s when Jerry Lee Lewis's ruinous marriage to his thirteen-year-old second cousin in the late 1950s had long been forgotten, and when twenty-five-year-old Elvis Presley's wooing of fourteen-year-old Priscilla Beaulieu was considered off-limits lest it damage the King's lofty reputation. Only Woody Allen got hammered in public, and Soon Yi was twenty-one in 1992. No wonder Allen seems bitter. I can't blame him. All these other rascals got away with it.

Vivien Leigh herself was married, when she was barely seventeen, to a wealthy British lawyer, Leigh Holman, who was fourteen years her senior, and gave birth to her only child, Suzanne Holman, when she was just eighteen. She was born Vivian Hartley to a rich English family living the colonial life in Darjeeling, India before the First World War. After her marriage, Vivian Holman left a lucrative career as a fashion model and became a student at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in London. She wanted a stage name that sounded better than Hartley or Holman, so she changed one letter in her first name and took her husband's first name as her last. She fell in love with the married Laurence Olivier, became an overnight sensation on the boards, made several films with her lover, who soon took her to Hollywood to meet his agent Myron Selznick, the brother of David O. Selznick, the producer of GWTW. The rest as they say, is cinematic history.

Just imagine the scandal if the public had ever learned that their precious Scarlett was living in sin with a married man, which she was during the entire production of GWTW. Truly amazing.

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What a bunch of high and mighty, judgemental and opinionated people taking part in this discussion. The Queen of England was 13 when she fell in love with her future husband Prince Philip who was 18. Some people seem to think a girl is incapable of love at that age and, because of the fashion today, the man is the 'creep' always for 'grooming' her. Such poppycock! So many people (I would guess - especially Americans) have tried to impose their morals to the past behaviours without realising how things have changed - even in just the past 35 years. Just look at your own movies from the eighties - let alone standards from the sixties and seventies in Europe. Take your heads out of the sand and try to understand - morals change and behaviours that were considered acceptable once (just like dress and hairstyles from the twenties and thirties) can become 'fashionable' and acceptable practice once more - however much you might hold your noses up and disapprove right now

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Right on spot.

Besides I must say this 18 years old criteria for legal age of being an adult sucks big times. I don't know which idiot made this criteria and shoved it down the throat of Americans and Europeans. A girl and boy reach full puberty at the age of 15 and they should be allowed to choose partner and marry.

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Yes apparently being against ephebophilia is "high and mighty" and "judgmental". 

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Of all the reasons Gerald & Ellen O'Hara could have had to object to Rhett Butler as a son-in-law, his age would have been the least of it.

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I have been following this discussion and very interesting comments all around.

Yes, GWTW was a different time and place. In the novel, Scarlett laments the fact that she has to marry soon or be considered "an old maid." She thinks about all the "tricks" she has learned to woo and entice men, all the fun of courtship and dances and balls and picnics, etc. She thinks that it is a shame that a girl can only court and have fun for a few brief years.

But then she reminds herself that if the fun goes on too long and a girl is still unmarried at eighteen, people say, "Oh the poor thing", pity her, and look upon her as a loser and an old maid.

Scarlett thinks, "Better to get married and keep your self respect even if it means you don't have any more fun."

At the Wilkes barbecue Rhett at the age of 34 (or so) is attracted to the 16 year old Scarlett. Back then that was perfectly acceptable, although today it would mean an older guy is hot for a high school kid. By today's standards, kinda creepy! It's like the high school teacher who dates his student.

But down through history women didn't usually work or have any outside income, so an older man who was well off would be a perfectly acceptable husband.

For myself, I think of it in a practical way. I used to substitute teach. Sometimes I'd run into my teen-age male students on a Friday night at the grocery store. They'd invite me to go "party" with them. Yikes! Aside from the fact that it is totally unethical for teachers to socialize with their students, all I could think was, "What on earth would I have in common with these boys?"

To me they were children! I could not imagine socializing, let alone marrying someone who was twenty years younger. WHAT would we talk about? What would we have in common?

But back then, marriages were not for "talking". Men wanted young wives to bear children and women needed financial protectors.

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