[deleted]
[deleted]
Advanced civilization has never developed in isolation. The creators bought into Marxist bullshit about colonialism, just like the Castros and other loser Commies.
shareAnd Vibranium has never existed. Neither have Panther gods (ducks religious fanatics). Neither have Norse gods. Neither have Tibetan magicians, or giant green rage monsters, or super-soldiers.
See how that works?
Not really...
shareThere is absolutely no plausible way they could be what they are.
shareNot sure what you're trying to assert, but the bottom line is: when you add fictional, deal-breaking, world-altering elements to your story, statements like "no plausible way" are foolish. You're applying real-world considerations to a universe in which gods walk among us, impossible materials exist, and a guy can put an arc reactor in his chest & use it to fly around a megajoule-powered metal suit.
ANY of these are game changers. . .to claim you know what the socio-economic expression of a completely changed world would be is simply silly.
Import,export and economics exist in our world. There is a foundation for these concepts,unlike the other examples you cited. They strive for plausibility when there is an existing foundation to build on. Grass is green,the sky is blue,etc.You can't just say any answer qualifies because super heroes exist,and they aren't real.Ithink your evasive because you can't actually answer the question. Answer the question concisely if you can.
share"Concisely?" I'm gonna assume you know what that word means, and restrict myself to this: You're applying real-world considerations to a fictional society. This is an error of such a fundamental nature, I don't know how many other ways to explain it. Yes, some things should be consistent, but the underlying concept is so basic it should be fairly obvious. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Move on. . .
shareThat's what I thought,no answer.Why don't you just keep quiet next time instead of revealing yourself to be completely full of shit.
shareThe fact that you don't have the brainpower to understand doesn't mean it wasn't explained to you. Like I said: move on. Thinkin' ain't for everybody.
shareIt was handed to you. Now wipe it off and learn a thing or two.
shareYou're applying real-world considerations to a universe in which gods walk among us
In the Marvel Universe Asgardians aren't gods in the mythical/conventional sense, but simply an advanced race from another world that had an impact on Earth back in the day with the Norse. They might be long-lived, but they're not immortal. share
True. That doesn't alter the fact of what I was explaining.
shareI think Burk's argument is that, even in the highly imaginative universe of Marvel where people have superpowers and there are advanced races from other worlds, it would not change the basic rules of economics.
As such, his question is legitimate.
Instead of being shamed to silence, his question merits consideration.
At the same time, I get your point: It's a fantasy movie and the Marvel universe doesn't exist; so don't analyze it too deeply.
I get Burk's argument. It's just deeply flawed.
The fact of the matter is, it *WOULD* change the basic rules of import/export/economics/diplomacy etc etc etc. . .
I don't know if you read a lot of comics, but one great example of a book that takes a good look at this phenomenon is Miracleman. (Especially the later issues). Another is Watchmen. . .one of the most fascinating things about the story, in fact, is an examination of how some such fundamental elements are different, some are the same, and some a slightly altered version.
That said, it's a common trope/point of confusion. I just don't have a lot of patience with explaining it repeatedly to people who refuse to hear.
I have many boxes of comics and Watchmen is my favorite superhero flick.
As you know, the Watchmen story didn't take place in the regular DC Universe. The story explored the theme of what would happen in the real world if superheroes in their laughable costumes really existed. Black Panther, on the other hand, takes place in the Marvel Universe, not an alternative one, like Watchmen.
Basically, the Marvel Universe is the same as ours EXCEPT there are people with superhero powers and there are advanced races from other worlds/realms. These two things, of course, have an effect on the reality of said universe, but it would not change the BASIC rules of economics. For instance, Peter Parker acquired superpowers, but he still had to work to make a living to survive without illegally using his powers to steal.
Or take the law of gravity: It still exists in the Marvel version of reality and is only superceded via super powers (the Human Torch) or invention (the Falcon) or mystical bs (Doctor Strange). Otherwise, if a human being steps off a cliff he/she will fall to the ground.
So Burk's question is legitimate. Providing possible answers might help logical viewers suspend disbelief and enjoy the movie.
I get your perspective.
I have many ROOMS of comics. . .and I was speaking of the comic, not the movie, w/Watchmen. Miracleman is a better example of what I'm pointing out, but:
You've drawn a Completely artificial distinction between the Marvel U and the Watchmen U. For some reason, you seem to think Marvel's U is "not an alternative one." This could not be further from the truth. Your subsequent statement, that it's "the same as us Except for superpowers" is like saying Benzene is the same as Dynamite w/o some extra Nitrogen molecules. ADDING SOMETHING SO FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES *EVERYTHING*. You can choose to ignore that, but it Doesn't change that fundamental truth. It changes the arms race, subsequent diplomatic relations, renewable energy research, prenatal care, economic underpinnings of entire societies, political maneuvering due to that. . .EVERYTHING. So when you start to try and pick and choose when to ignore that (HOW could Wakanda work the way it's described? Why isn't Peter Parker rich? Why aren't the Muslims/Christians/Mormons/Jews/Pastafarians having NON-STOP arguments about Thor???) the discussion becomes silly very, Very quickly.
Bottom line: arguing about what the societal effects would be is absurd: the creators have clearly decided not to tell that story. Which Doesn't mean there isn't a story to be told; it's just not necessary once you realize This World Has Changed. . .and yes, it looks *markedly* different than ours in some fundamental ways. BECAUSE there are incredible people/technologies/resources that are Game-Changers.
Your example of the law of gravity is a classic non-equivalence. Yes, physics still works (somewhat) the same; it needs to in order to tell an internally-consistent story. But there's a difference between adding a super-power or two, and keeping physics constant. . .and adding an entire range of fantastical elements to a universe, and keeping the Results of those changes restricted.
ADDING SOMETHING SO FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES EVERYTHING. You can choose to ignore that, but it Doesn't change that fundamental truth. It changes the arms race, diplomatic relations, renewable energy research, prenatal care, economic underpinnings of entire societies, political maneuvering due to that. . .EVERYTHING.
As the Marvel Universe is depicted to us -- the reader or viewer -- it's the SAME AS our reality EXCEPT FOR superpowers and other races on other worlds and in other realms. As such, the rules of economics are basically the same, just as the law of gravity is. Hence Peter Parker HAS to work for a living and Tony Stark HAS to run his corporation and invent things, etc. It's why Gwen Stacy fell to her death. Why? Because in the Marvel Universe the law of gravity still applies; and so do the rules of economics: Countries still have to develop natural resources, develop a spirit of excellence & diligence and eliminate corruption from the public and private sectors in order to prosper. I'm not sure what it is you're not getting about this. (And, btw, when I say "prosper" I mean it in the wholistic sense, not merely acquiring big bucks through illegal activities).
Bottom line: Burk's question is a valid question and should not be dismissed without consideration and clarification.
But you did provide a reasonable explanation and I appreciate it: "the creators have clearly decided not to tell that story." The filmmakers had enough to focus on in the roughly 2 hours with which they had to work. This leaves us open to speculate in friendly debate on how Wakanda society became so prosperous (which is why these boards exist). I assure you that -- even in the fantastical Marvel Universe -- the Wakandans HAD TO apply the tried-and-true principles noted above. They did not prosper -- in the genuine sense -- outside of the basic rules of economics. Or perhaps you know of some Marvel fantasy law that they applied in order to prosper? share
But Marvel's too smart (generally speaking) to attribute Wakanda's prosperity to some cheesy fantasy element, like the blessing of the panther god or whatever.
shareI was hardly shamed to silence,but feel it a waste of time to debate someone so clearly unable to back up their statements. At the same time,I agree to your point of it being a fantasy movie,but as part of the world building,this has new economy must be developed if it's to play such a large role in the story. We'd never dismiss the fact that suddenly every human on the planet can read minds,but it's never mentioned how. Good comics know that any major change of any universal understanding of our world must be part of the story.
shareI didn't think you were shamed to silence. I was simply conveying how Goliard was using debate tactics to -- in effect -- try to "shame you to silence." I realize you quit responding because he kept brushing off your question as illegitimate (and therefore not addressing it) and you didn't want to waste your time.
shareOh, for. . .
I'm not "brushing off" anything. As you can see above, I had no problem having a rational discussion with you. . .you seem to be capable. This other guy, on the other hand, seemed unable; choosing instead to ignore my repeated statements w/increasing hyperbole. Which is a waste of MY time, so I disengaged.
Fin.
Oh, for. . .
I'm not "brushing off" anything.
I'm an unbiased reader on this thread who stumbled upon your exchange with Burk. I'm on no one's "side."
You kept refusing to actually answer his valid question about the movie, preferring to shame him as an idiot for even asking such a question. But his question is legitimate because there's a huge difference between asking logical questions about a cartoon like The Road Runner -- where everything defies natural laws and logic -- and the Marvel Universe, where the rules of economics and the law of gravity, etc. still apply, unless you can supersede them via superpowers, sorcery, invention, etc.
So, yes, you WERE brushing off his question. If this is not the case, as you claim, then simply answer his question without being condescending by trying to make him feel like a dumbaxx. share
I'm an unbiased writer on this thread (. . .) who tried a couple of times to answer a (fairly) simple question w/an uncomplicated answer.
I don't "refuse" to answer, generally, but neither do I repeat myself.
I never "shame" people. . .go back and read the flow of the conversation. ("idiot"???? Never said or even implied such a thing.)
Now, to your other point: I'll simply point out gently, Again, that you're drawing a false equivalence. Citing roadrunner cartoons misses the point completely: When you add magic, science that may as well be magic, and superpowers to a story, there is a CASCADE of effects. The writers may choose whether or not to address those effects, but the inescapable result is that, while the laws of logic/consistency/reasonable physics should still apply, there will be MAJOR (and apparently hard to understand) effects on Everything Else. Including, for the umpteenth time, how an isolationist country can generate wealth, relate to the rest of the world, preserve traditions, dip into the socio-economic global pool, etc, etc, etc.
This is what I stated IN MY FIRST MESSAGE. My unwillingness to repeat it ad infinitum does NOT translate to "brushing someone off," or trying to make anyone feel foolish.
That is all.
You're obviously a quality person, Goliard, and I don't have a problem with you personally.
I never said you called Burk an idiot. I said your debate tactics were condescending in that they were designed to make him feel like a dumbaxx for asking a valid question about the story.
Just as the law of gravity still applies in the Marvel universe so do the rules of economics, which is why JJJ did everything he could to sell papers to make a living, usually resorting to sensationalism. He couldn't count on Dr. Strange to whip up a spell to make his paper successful.
It's the same thing with Wakanda. They were a prosperous country, but why? Certainly not through the "panther god" blessing them. Then what was the secret of their great wealth as a nation? That's all Burk was asking. It's an interesting question to explore.
It might help us to answer the question by rephrasing it like so: "In the world of the Marvel Universe, where did Wakanda get it's wealth from? How were they so prosperous?"
Here's my stab: Since we know Wakanda didn't prosper due to Odin's blessing or a spell by Dr. Strange, they must have worked the rules of economics in their favor, which includes establishing a national identity, cultivating a sense of unity and developing a spirit of nobility, diligence & excellence rather than corruption, sloth & crapola. They also had to recognize and take advantage of their natural resources, including (and especially) the sound-absorbing vibranium, which came to Wakanda via a meteorite ages ago.
Realizing that outsiders would inevitably try to manipulate Wakanda for this uncommon and prized element, T'Challa’s father hides Wakanda from the rest of the Earth while he peddles infinitesimal quantities of the priceless resource and covertly sends the nation's top academics to study in first world nations. All this worked in Wakanda’s favor, turning it into one of the planet's most industrially progressive, independent countries.
Yeah, no plausible way man! Stan Lee was on some good drugs. I mean what about Themyscira? Amazonian warriors living on an island with some invisible cloak over it? There is no way that could exist!!! I man who turns big and green when he's angry and jump building to building? Yeah, I'd like to see that in real life. What about technology that turns you into the size of an Ant? This universe that Stan Lee created, there is just no plausible way. Why do people keep falling for these stories and giving him cash at the box office. It's ludicrous!!
shareNot the same at all. All of those things you mentioned do not have an existing bases in our world. There is nothing supernatural about Wakanda. It simply defies all known rules of society,and economics. Nice try though.
share