MovieChat Forums > The Falcon and the Winter Soldier (2021) Discussion > "Big bad government" angle completely pl...

"Big bad government" angle completely played out in Marvel


Marvel has done a waaaaaaaay better job in just about every department compared to DC. But Marvel keeps trotting out this "the government is bad, heroes never wrong" bullshit. Wanda? No consequences. Bucky and Sam? Pardoned. And you know they are going to make Walker bad because he's the government's Captain America.

Stark was right in AoU. Heroes running around unchecked. They do whatever they want. They're mostly good people, but their actions have consequences and there needed to be laws. But every single fucking time, these guys are given breaks. But big mean government men? Nope. They gotta go to jail for trying to stop these heroes when they cross a line. Redford's character was different. He was an actual Hydra agent. But the "evil" SWORD guy, the "racist" cops in this past episode, Walker (it's coming), the government guys who dared to try and stop an alien invasion in the original Avengers, whoever was in charge of the Super Soldier program with Isiah - all bad guys. It's tired and cliche. Christ, I just watched Homecoming for the first time every yesterday and the whole Stark/Damage Control thing is just played out. Big bad government comes in and takes over cleanup creating The Vulture. It's so fucking old.

Also, Sam and Bucky are kind of assholes. Like Wandavision, I'm enjoying the show, but these anti-accords heroes just aren't very likeable. They think they should be able to do whatever they want. I dislike Bucky a little less than Sam because he was brainwashed/programmed, but even that being said, he still resists authority. But Sam just outright has no regard for authority.

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It may seem old but its kind of realistic and keeps the mcu grounded.

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Definitely realistic.

A more original and realistic angle would be if MCU ran a plot line on the media being state run propagandists, and 50% of the public being completely naive to this and turning against superheroes.

The dilemma for the superheroes would be that they can’t just blast humans away just for being brainwashed. THAT would be interesting.

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Bucky is a mass murderer. Wanda has killed people and taken an entire town hostage and tortured them (and she knew it too). Sam has broken the law. Cap broke the law. Not only is there virtually no consequences for any of these people, we gotta make sure we punish those government folk, eh?It's wrong. Point blank, it's wrong. It's an incorrect argument. It has no merit. And they use it over and over. Heroes never wrong, government never right.

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They did suffer consequences though... Did you forget about civil war? The problem is these heroes are also very powerful and hard to contain, also its almost impossible to punish these heroes when every now and then there are world ending event messing things up.

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What consequences? Sitting in jail for 5 minutes? Everyone arrested for being against the Accords was freed by the end of Civil War. Bucky, quite possible the most dangerous one of them all (in terms of what he's done) was given a complete pardon and is out doing whatever the F he wants again.

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They were illegally freed and had to be on the run for 2 years.

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And what's happened since? NOTHING. Anti-side gets away with everything. Bucky has literally killed hundreds of people and allowed to walk around. And what's he doing now? Breaking the law.

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Here's what happened since: Bucky, Sam and Wanda helped to save the entire universe. That fact is publicly known, as "Far From Home" and "WandaVision" have both confirmed.

That's presumably how Bucky got pardoned despite being a mass murderer.

In any case, were Bucky to face justice for his actions as the Winter Soldier, his easily demonstrable brainwashing would likely mitigate any sentence, if not exonerate him completely.

Same with Sam -- saving the entire universe easily makes up for trashing a German airport and going on the lam for two years.

Wanda's a more interesting case -- what she did was morally wrong as well as hella illegal, and she did it AFTER "Endgame" so there's no basis to pardon her. But I believe we left "WandaVision" with her very much an anti-hero who's only at large because no one's powerful enough to stop her.

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A grounded comic book. *snort-laugh-sneer* That’s like a nun hooker.

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Because they are movies about Superheroes. Obviously superheroes in the real world makes no sense. It's fantasy. In order for the premise to work, you have to have a reason for superheroes to exist, which means the government and military have to be either corrupt or incompetent. You are basically complaining about superheroes existing in a fictional world about Superheroes.

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"You can't criticize because this isn't real" isn't an argument.

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I know, but since you can read, you already know that this wasn't my argument, which was rock solid. Hence your need for the strawman.

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"It's fantasy" "They are movies about superheroes"

Yes, your argument is "criticism not allowed." It has no merit and you know it. You aren't even attempting to combat my point, you're just "none of this is real, just let it go".

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Biden is the bad guy.

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In order for the premise to work, you have to have a reason for superheroes to exist, which means the government and military have to be either corrupt or incompetent.


Or other superheroes or aliens or tycoons. The MCU - and Hollywood generally — just keep(s) cycling through the same old villains. It’s interesting that the Wakandan monarchy is portrayed glowingly in comparison to thoroughly corrupt and/or misguided democratic governments.

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Biggest assholes are the Avengers (especially Stark) who deliberately chose to Blip 3,5 billion people 5 years later after the Snap leaving the the world (and thousands of alien worlds) devasted. The gauntlet had the power to bring everyone back immediately after they got snapped, in the past, 5 years ago or just reset the original timeline completely.

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God, I hope this is sarcasm.

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No, it's not.

Imagine a family of 4, parents and 2 kids. The Snap happens, one parent and one kid disappear. 5 years pass, the 2 remaining have grieved and moved on, maybe the parent even remarried, maybe even remarried with someone displaced from a high population and poor area as immigrant to the USA, maybe the kid died one year later in a car accident. Life went forward.

And now the asshole avengers bring the blip, and the people that disappeared 5 years ago reaper and for them everything happened like ... 1 second ago, not 5 years. Can you imagine all the pain and the fucked up situations that the world is open to? I had a job, a family, a life one second ago but now I have nothing, been declared dead, my wife forgot about me already, etc. And the wife ... after moving on and having another husband, maybe another kid with the new husband, suddenly has her old husband back as well, who doesn't understand wtf is going on, etc. And that is happening FOR HALF OF THE WORLD. "Honey, i haven't seen you since breakfast but i love you so much" "WTF? You've been dead for 5 years, who are you? why are you doing this to me?"

What about the people that were flying at the moment of the snap ... did they just splat on the asphalt from 10.000 feet? Or sailing ... did they just become shark food?

If they did the blip, they should have done it then, right after the snap, not 5 years later ... specially when they can move around time how the fuck they want to.

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Strange would’ve ran that scenario. Remember? Obviously if they tried to intervene with the original snap it wouldn’t have worked.

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There's no scenario to run. As seen in the show, the blip brought a LOT of problems.

People would have re-appeared in the same spatial position. Can you imagine millions of people appearing out of thin air in the middle of highways at 80mph???

And I'm not even bringing the fact that in 5 years the planet itself would have traveled in space quire a bit.

All the people would have re-appeared somewhere in the middle of an empty space between planets or maybe even inside the sun.

Basic physics .. I know, doesn't apply in super hero movies :D

But even ignoring the basic physics, the implication of half of population re-appearing after 5 years are immense - again, the show goes a bit into that.

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If you’re worried about physics you might want to start at the first Avengers.

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They coulda blipped them all back 25 days later after they killed original Thanos, how about that?
Infinity gauntlet is capable of unwinding time, changing reality, restoring people, bringing back the dead (except soulstone sacrifice ofc), etc. It's basically over 9000.
Plus Strange didn't tell Stark that he needs to be a selfish bastard and protect his future kid to be at the cost of 3,5 billion displaced people. That's the real reason, plot driving scene in Endgame. The current show is still dealing with those consequences, having to move millions of refugees back to their original countries, the reason for Karli and her flag smashers motivation.

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Is this serious, LOL?

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were you dropped on your head as child?

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Just a minor correction - quantum time machine doesn't let you move back and forth in your Earth 1 timeline, but rather create separate timelines that will not affect your own.
However, the infinity stones do not have that limitations and they coulda reset timeline as they see fit but Tony specifically told Bruce to "bring everyone back now, but don't change anything in the past. Restore what we lost, but keep what we have now" (implying his daughter ofcourse).

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So I guess IM is the big asshole ...

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I feel like mcu should just make a random drama based movie about the blip without focusing too much on the superhero element.

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Wait, if the show is made by liberals, it should be big good government, right?

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